# Western route to Asia if no Americas **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 5, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156 "2023-10-05T18:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/41 "2023-10-07T13:13:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They couldnt read, they never left their villages to attend lectures. I do not think you understand how backward the peasants were back then. [https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html](https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/42 "2023-10-07T19:48:11Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > [https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html](https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html) Thank you for proving my point- _On the contrary, numerous ancient thinkers, navigators and artists observed that the Earth was round… Many writers also assumed the Earth was a sphere. Dante’s Divine Comedy even discussed how the shape of the world created different time zones, and how different stars were visible in the southern and northern hemispheres._ Absolutely, as I have said, the educated people mostly thought the world was round. I am talking about the uneducated, ignorant peasants, who made up the bulk of the population. So, the fact that " _Many writers also assumed the Earth was a sphere"_ would be meaningless as the peasants not only didnt own any books but couldnt read them if they could. wiki- _Belief in a flat Earth among educated Europeans was almost nonexistent from the [Late Middle Ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Middle_Ages) onward, though fanciful depictions appear in art, such as the [exterior panels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights#Exterior) of [Hieronymus Bosch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_Bosch)’s famous triptych [The Garden of Earthly Delights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights), in which a disc-shaped Earth is shown floating inside a transparent sphere.[[4]]_([Myth of the flat Earth - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth#cite_note-***FOOTNOTEGombrich1969162%E2%80%93170-4)) _According to [Stephen Jay Gould](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould), “there never was a period of ‘flat Earth darkness’ among scholars, regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now. Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the Earth’s roundness as an established fact of [cosmology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology).”[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGould1997-5) Historians of science [David Lindberg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_C._Lindberg) and [Ronald Numbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Numbers) point out that “there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth’s] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference”.[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth#cite_note-FOOTNOTELindbergNumbers1986338%E2%80%93354-6)_ Note the term '_scholars_". Absolutely, most _scholars_ believed in a round earth. Obviously peasants did not record their beliefs, since of course they had no way to do so. It took until 1822 for the Church to agree that the Earth went around the sun, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/43 "2023-10-07T19:50:41Z")
Right, but what reason do you have for believing that ignorant peasants believed in a flat earth? Why is that the default position? So far I’ve seen no evidence other than “well, they’re the opposite of educated, so….” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/44 "2023-10-07T19:58:01Z")
Weell, like i said, we dont know exactly what they thought, since it wasnt recorded. Primitive cultures, seem to think the earth is flat. All we know for sure is what most scholars thought in the renaissance, becuase we have their writings. Assuming for that, that the peasants thought the same is far fetched. And remember, the Ancient Greeks wrote about their _proofs_ the earth was round, why do so if everyone agreed? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/45 "2023-10-07T21:19:14Z")
Whatever they thought in is unlikely they thought anything resembling the actual size and shape of the earth or the size and shape of it’s major features. What they could see with their own eyes was land, water, or ice as far as the eye could see. From the top of a mountain where they could see much further they would still see a flat earth and nothing to indicate it was spherical or had any boundaries. The only other thing that would influence them would be lore that indicates otherwise and effectively meaningless to them since it would be contrary to everything they could observe in reality So it is very safe to assume that the common peasant believed in a flat earth with no comprehensible boundary. Scholars figured it out eventually because they traveled greater distances than ignorant peasants and communicated with other scholars who had math and understood more about the apparent path of the sun and other celestial objects. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/46 "2023-10-08T03:58:52Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Scholars figured it out eventually because they traveled greater distances than ignorant peasants and communicated with other scholars who had math and understood more about the apparent path of the sun and other celestial objects. Right. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/47 "2023-10-08T17:47:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Not if you live by the sea. I just want to address this. I have lived at or near the sea for my whole life, and spent a great deal of time either on or near the water. The observation that ships descend below the horizon as they get further from shore is not nearly as straightforward as is sometimes presented. A ship has to be several kilometres from shore before even 1 metre of its hull becomes hidden below the horizon. Most of the time, this difference will not be perceptible, especially when conditions are hazy (as they very frequently are on the sea coast, at least where I live). To make things worse, in cold, clear conditions it is very frequently the case (at least where I live!) that optical effects will cause the image of a distant ship to be raised, rather than lowered. So, while it is theoretically the case that one can observe the curvature of the earth by watching a distant ship, it is far from a commonplace observation. It is the kind of thing that is much more likely to be noticed by people who are already aware of the effect and are therefore primed to recognise it on the relatively rare occasions when it is observable. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/48 "2023-10-08T17:57:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Weell, like i said, we dont know exactly what they thought, since it wasnt recorded. Primitive cultures, seem to think the earth is flat. You are moving the goalposts. You originally stated that the common people of the Middle Ages thought the earth was flat. You have provided zero evidence or a cite that this is true. It has shown that the persistence of the Flat Earth Myth is just that - a myth. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/49 "2023-10-08T18:19:55Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > It has shown that the persistence of the Flat Earth Myth is just that - a myth. What is the Flat Earth myth? In regard to ancient beliefs ‘Flat Earth’ means anything other than a sphere, not some specific shape. It also includes people who had no idea what the shape of the earth was or ever gave it a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/50 "2023-10-08T18:23:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > What is the Flat Earth myth? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth\_of\_the\_flat\_Earth/](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth/) As far as I can tell “ peasants” didn’t think about it one way or the other. DrDeth is insisting the populous had the belief that the earth was flat. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/51 "2023-10-08T19:41:39Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > You are moving the goalposts. You originally stated that the common people of the Middle Ages thought the earth was flat. You have provided zero evidence or a cite that this is true. > > It has shown that the persistence of the Flat Earth Myth is just that - a myth. No, that has not been shown, What has been shown is that many _scholars_ knew otherwise. That is to say- some tiny % of the populace. Note that all those cites were very careful to say that only scholars, the educated, etc knew the earth was round. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/52 "2023-10-08T19:48:06Z")
I’m still waiting for a cite to back up your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/53 "2023-10-08T19:55:51Z")
Many posters here already gave it. Do keep up. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/54 "2023-10-09T00:52:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Primitive cultures, seem to think the earth is flat. Which ones? > [@hibernicus](#): > > So, while it is theoretically the case that one can observe the curvature of the earth by watching a distant ship, it is far from a commonplace observation. And yet, if you live literally your whole life along the coast or out to sea, it may yet be _common enough_ to figure out over one’s lifetime. And to interact daily with others who have made similar observations, leading to the same conclusion, allowing for a consensus view. Also, don’t discount the reverse proposition: that the land, when viewed from a ship putting out to sea, will appear to recede in similar fashion: the structures and landmarks along the shore first, the mountaintops very last, even though the mountaintops will be much farther away than coastal structures. I could imagine an ancient fisherman plying the coastal waters near his home laughing out loud if someone tried to tell him the Earth was flat. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/55 "2023-10-09T02:44:55Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > And yet, if you live literally your whole life along the coast or out to sea, it may yet be _common enough_ to figure out over one’s lifetime. Except, most ships never sailed out of sight of land back then, due to crappy navigation. Also, the ship disappearing would even happen on a flat earth- > **[Boats do Not Sail Over the "Curve" of the Earth — Qur'anic Warners](https://quranicwarners.org/blog/boats-do-not-sail-over-the-curve-of-the-earth)** > > Nikon P1000 Full Optical Zoom Video Shows Boats Obstructed by the Water But this is Not Proof of a Globe Earth, as this would Also Occur on a Flat Earth Footage of boats being obstructed by water is one of the first proofs that people claim for the... _Footage of boats being obstructed by water is one of the first proofs that people claim for the earth being a globe, but what most people do not know, is that this would also occur on a flat earth. And right now, most people are probably shaking their heads, “knowing” that this is not true in their heads. But it is true, and the fact that this is true only proves that globe earthers dismiss the flat earth theory without any actual knowledge._ _Flat earthers and globe earthers alike claim that a boat would always be visible on a flat earth, regardless of how far it gets, and although this is true in theory, the reality is, that this relies on the horizon being perfectly flat. …The problem is that both globe earthers and even flat earthers falsely assume that the ocean is flat, and so they think of the theory above as reality. But the ocean is not perfectly flat, rather, the waves have a non-negligible height even on the horizon, and these waves are what globe earthers and flat earthers both overlook._ _Furthermore, the true horizon is not the waves, but rather, below the waves, and so as the boat continues to move further away assuming a flat earth, it will continue to get smaller, yet the waves on the horizon will remain a fixed height. This effect is demonstrated in the original video above, as well as the GIF below. This will cause the boat to disappear bottom first as it continues to get smaller as it gets further away even on a flat earth._ ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/56 "2023-10-09T03:00:09Z")
First, I notice you didn’t answer my question. Second, it is possible to remain in sight of land without being visible from the shore itself, and one does not need to go out all that far for the curvature of the Earth to be significant enough to obscure low-lying structures. I seem to recall that the visible horizon from our height of high of 56 feet from the bridge of an _Arleigh Burke_-class destroyer, for example, was about 9 miles. Not very far out, and of course height of eye from the deck of an ancient or medieval sailing vessel would have been much lower. Easily enough to completely obscure all but the tallest structures (Church steeples, perhaps, could have remained visible further out) while still being able to make up even low-lying hills and any structures or landmarks on them, allowing for easy navigation. _Also_, since I see you’ve added more text, I would simply note that any sailor operating in coastal waters would similarly laugh at the idea of mere waves being sufficient to obscure buildings or whole ships up to and including their sales: 56 foot high waves, for example, are the sort of thing that one would tend to notice. Just because modern flat-Esther’s are stupid and/or willfully ignorant doesn’t mean ancient seagoing peoples were. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/57 "2023-10-09T03:04:00Z")
And here is why so many of the flat earth debunkers go wrong- > **[Flat earth debunking gone wrong](https://beltoforion.de/en/flat_earth_debunking_gone_wrong/)** > > How the ZDF documentary series Terra-X cheated with an experiment trying to disprove the flat earth theory and proved nothing in the end. Mind you yes, of course the Earth is round. But it does not appear so. I mean, the ancient greek scholars who postulated a spherical earth got opposition even then. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/58 "2023-10-09T03:06:25Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Which ones? Everyone who could not read, go to lectures, etc. People whose only teaching was the Bible, or similar holy text. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/59 "2023-10-09T03:06:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Everyone who could not read, go to lectures, etc. People whose only teaching was the Bible, or similar holy text. Specific primitive cultures, please. With evidence, not mere assertions from you that surely they must have believed the Earth was flat. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156/60 "2023-10-09T04:44:04Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Specific primitive cultures, please. With evidence, not mere assertions from you that surely they must have believed the Earth was flat. How would illiterate people leave evidence? Of course here we are talking about Europe. But all those cites prove my point- they say over and over "scholars’ and “educated”. . Do they ever say the peasants and the un-educated? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/western-route-to-asia-if-no-americas/991156.md?page=4)