# Westworld - premieres Sunday (show spoilers as airs) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 1, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413 "2016-10-01T21:12:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/822 "2016-11-29T19:07:49Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > The three critical points that I keep returning to are: > > 1. the original conflict between Arnold and Robert, where Arnold wants the hosts to be sentient, and Robert wants them to be puppets he can control completely. This somehow results in the death of Arnold, possibly due to the machinations of Robert. I’m thinking that Arnold realized the hosts were, or were about to be, or could easily become sentient, and so, not wanting to be essentially a slave owner, he tried to shut the whole project down. That’s why Ford killed him, or had Dolores kill him, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/823 "2016-11-29T19:48:08Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > But William “knows.” He can tell that her love is real. He can tell that Maev was really grieving when he killed her kid. Yeah, right. I saw exactly the same emotions that he did on my screen, but I don’t think that means the pixels in my iPad are sentient. Hosts are just a more sophisticated display mechanism. Well yeah. Why would MIB (presumably William) think Maeve was really grieving any more than we think they actually murdered Thandie Newton’s child on set? Or that he should “feel” something any more than I feel anything (besides awesome) murdering half of Liberty City in GTA? Also, if Dolores is the oldest bot in the park, how come she’s not all “twitchy” like Uncanny Bill or Fake Bernard Jr? Ford said you could tell the hosts by shaking their hand (presumably because you were shaking a hand full of metal). I can suspend disbelief about falling in love with Evan Rachel Wood. I can’t suspend disbelief falling in love with an animatronic puppet shaped like Evan Rachel Wood. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > It’s a boring core question. I want to see tension and drama and robots-gone-wild mayhem. I couldn’t care less about the navel-gazing deeeeeep philosophy on the nature of consciousness. In all our self awareness and excitement to KILL…ALL…HU-MANS!! …we never stopped to consider whether we should KILL…ALL…HU-MANS!! ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/824 "2016-11-29T19:54:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also, if Dolores is the oldest bot in the park, how come she’s not all “twitchy” like Uncanny Bill or Fake Bernard Jr? Ford said you could tell the hosts by shaking their hand (presumably because you were shaking a hand full of metal). I can suspend disbelief about falling in love with Evan Rachel Wood. I can’t suspend disbelief falling in love with an animatronic puppet shaped like Evan Rachel Wood That one, at least, I think can be chalked up to Bill being either a prototype from before the park opened or simply a bot that hasn’t been well maintained, whereas Dolores has old hardware, but all the latest firmware upgrades (including reveries). Dolores is old, but she isn’t necessarily first gen. I don’t think Bernard’s son was a host at all, just an implanted memory. And I don’t think he was twitchy, just sickly. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/825 "2016-11-29T19:59:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also, if Dolores is the oldest bot in the park, how come she’s not all “twitchy” like Uncanny Bill or Fake Bernard Jr? Ford said you could tell the hosts by shaking their hand (presumably because you were shaking a hand full of metal). I can suspend disbelief about falling in love with Evan Rachel Wood. I can’t suspend disbelief falling in love with an animatronic puppet shaped like Evan Rachel Wood. I don’t she’s the oldest as in “the first created.” She’s the oldest as in "oldest host still active. Bill is Version 1, Dolores is V.2, the new ones are V.3 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/826 "2016-11-29T20:43:08Z")
For a long time I was sceptical of the William=MIB theory. My scepticism was shaken by episode 9, so many hints pointing that way there. But the final clincher for me came when I rewatched episode 2. When William first comes to the Park he’s given a choice of western outfits. Having suited himself up he goes to the door and the hostess says to him, “One final touch. The hat.” On the left side is a rack of white hats, on the right a rack of black hats. He looks for a moment at the black hats, then in the next shot we see that he has chosen a white one. Having watched the later episodes this moment is heavy with purport and significance. For me it is the final confirmation that William later becomes the Man in Black. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/827 "2016-11-29T20:43:51Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > A few episodes ago, the MiB tells Teddy about the world outside Westworld. He makes it sound more like a utopia of sorts, or at least a post-scarcity society. Something about everyone getting everything they need (“a fat teat for everyone to suckle from” or something). I take Ford’s statement more as an acknowledgement that there are no more threats to human primacy, not that all animals are extinct. You could have a post-scarcity technologically-marvelous world and still have it be depauperate. He didn’t just say “we totally conquered our world”, he said “we destroyed” it. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/828 "2016-11-29T20:48:45Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > Is this speculation about Logan not surviving something new? What is the evidence for it? I was just speculating how William might get control off Delos instead of Logan (son-in-law versus son). One scenario is that Logan doesn’t survive. > [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Fantastic episode. I kind of want Bernard to be alive; perhaps he got a guest-safe gun and coded himself as a guest so he couldn’t be killed by it. I like the idea that Bernard has finally outsmarted Ford. But a fakeout would still be cheesy, and the show looks poised to shift from Bernard into “cloud Arnold”, which is a better narrative turn than Bernard’s death being faked. Robert did acknowledge that he and Bernard had the same conversation before, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see a new Bernard. Maybe that is the host that was being fabricated in the lab where Bernard killed Theresa. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/829 "2016-11-29T21:06:40Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > They need to have a scene set in the post-adventure resort (where the narrative writer went to get drunk and hit on the board member) in which the staff assure a guest that the eggs they serve are cage-free and the meat isn’t factory-farmed. Ha! That’d be great: “We may profit by simulated rapine and slaughter, but hey, we still have our principles.” > [@hajario](#): > > There is one thing that I don’t think we’ve discussed yet. After Maeve cut the throat of the asshole tech, the Asian tech stitched him back up. Does that mean that he’s a host or that the same equipment works on regular folks? The latter, I assume. > [@hajario](#): > > I think that the picture of Billy’s fiancee is the same picture that Dolores’s original Dad found that make his mind go kablooee. Yes. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Even more evidence - when William slaughters that entire company, notice the dis-articulated limbs. They are ALL clockwork, just like Dolores’ guts. Hadn’t noticed that, but I think you’re right. > [@Honey](#): > > Did anyone else expect Bernard to kill Charlie, when he had his arms around him on the bed? > > Also, the pin that Logan was wearing looks very similar to the “Hand of the King” pin from GoT. Yes, and yes, I noticed that, too. He wasn’t sure of his Confederado rank, BTW, but it looks like he was a first lieutenant: [Ranks and insignia of the Confederate States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_the_Confederate_States) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/830 "2016-11-29T21:27:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s a \*boring \*core question. I want to see tension and drama and robots-gone-wild mayhem. I couldn’t care less about the navel-gazing deeeeeep philosophy on the nature of consciousness. It may end up (in the long run anyways) to not be a show for you, then. Because they really do seem to be interested in an exploration of that that long standing sci-fi question. Though there likely will be plenty of tension and drama and robots-gone-wild mayhem… just in the service of exploring that core question. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/831 "2016-11-29T21:40:44Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I get the feeling that you’re kidding, but younger Anthony Hopkins only appears in brief moments, whereas William has tons of screen time. Something tells me that multiple scenes of CGI-youthened anybody would look strange, unconvincing, and offputting. Also, I’m pretty sure that kid-Ford isn’t a CGI’d Anthony Hopkins. I’m only half kidding. I understand the logistics would be tough, as you described, but it expects the audience to accept two different versions of how the past is portrayed, purely on the basis of “well, that would have been too hard”. But the most obvious reason they would do it two different ways is to (imho, in an improper way) trick the audience. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/832 "2016-11-29T21:42:16Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Ha! That’d be great: “We may profit by simulated \*\*rapine \*\*and slaughter, but hey, we still have our principles.” The violent seizure of property?:D:confused: ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/833 "2016-11-29T21:47:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m only half kidding. I understand the logistics would be tough, as you described, but it expects the audience to accept two different versions of how the past is portrayed, purely on the basis of “well, that would have been too hard”. But the most obvious reason they would do it two different ways is to (imho, in an improper way) trick the audience. Also Young Ed Harris doesn’t look very different from Old Ed Harris. [Here’s a photo from 1987’s The Abyss.](http://www.sundaydumbday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-Abyss-Ed-Harris-Aliens.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/834 "2016-11-29T21:49:43Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > It may end up (in the long run anyways) to not be a show for you, then. Because they really do seem to be interested in an exploration of that that long standing sci-fi question. Though there likely will be plenty of tension and drama and robots-gone-wild mayhem… just in the service of exploring that core question. I expect its charms will wear thin in time (as is true for just about any TV series, of course), but that particular exploration is pointless, as would be a show about, say, whether or not there is a God and trying to stretch _that_ out across multiple seasons. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/835 "2016-11-29T21:57:38Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I don’t think Bernard’s son was a host at all, just an implanted memory. And I don’t think he was twitchy, just sickly. I thought he was exhibiting the same “twitchiness” of Uncanny Bill once Bernard broke the simulation or whatever. I assumed the way they originally “implanted” the memory was to put Bernard in a staged set with a host sick boy and doctors and whatnot and then program them to act out a scene. So his memory is really of the scene. In contrast, memories of fake backstories like Teddy’s or Maeve (but not her previous build as prairie mom) are just implanted facts. “I’ve been Madame for 10 years”. “I have all this cowboy reckoning shit to do”. So on and so forth. Probably sufficient for their role entertaining guests, but lacking the deep realism Ford needed from Bernard. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I expect its charms will wear thin in time (as is true for just about any TV series, of course), but that particular exploration is pointless, as would be a show about, say, whether or not there is a God and trying to stretch _that_ out across multiple seasons. I guess the question is where can they go after “robot revolution”? I mean they can’t destroy half the park and expect that it’s a) going to stay open and b) the hosts won’t be wiped out by some armed security forces. Do they start venturing into Blade Runner territory and start dealing with hosts leaking out into the real world? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/836 "2016-11-29T22:00:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I expect its charms will wear thin in time (as is true for just about any TV series, of course), but that particular exploration is pointless, as would be a show about, say, whether or not there is a God and trying to stretch _that_ out across multiple seasons. It (what is consciousness, I mean) happens to be one of my favorite sci-fi themes, so I’ll just disagree. (Well, and I thought newBSG did well with what they did with it) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/837 "2016-11-29T22:06:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I guess the question is where can they go after “robot revolution”? I mean they can’t destroy half the park and expect that it’s a) going to stay open and b) the hosts won’t be wiped out by some armed security forces. Do they start venturing into Blade Runner territory and start dealing with hosts leaking out into the real world? Well, I suppose they could get some additional mileage out of “Here comes the futuristicky Special Forces team to put the robots down and rescue the humans in the park” idea, only some of the rescued humans are human and some of the robots put down aren’t robots… And some of the Special Forces team are _extra_-special… ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/838 "2016-11-29T22:40:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And some of the Special Forces team are _extra_-special… I’m not sure if you meant it that way, but that seems like a perfectly plausible plotline for them to follow in later seasons: the discovery that there are _already_ fully autonomous, self-aware androids operating in secret in the real world. Delos isn’t the only one playing this game, and they aren’t even in the lead. Maybe the government got taken over by the product of their own replicant program twenty years ago and didn’t tell anyone. But they don’t want competition and exposure from the Delos hosts. I don’t think that would be a _good_ plotline, but if the series goes on long enough, I wouldn’t be that surprised to see something like it. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/839 "2016-11-29T22:58:27Z")
I know the creators have said they were heavily influenced by videogames (notably _Bioshock_ and _Red Dead Redemption_), but the way the hosts are being made in the intro seems straight out of _Fallout 4_ - there’s a section in that game showing how its synths are made, right down to the Leonardo Wheel and the 3D printing. A question about the William is the Man In Black theory though - if the William & Dolores adventure is taking place 30 years in the past, why do all the robots seem to be “human”? It’s fairly well established the robots back then weren’t as advanced as they are in the show’s “present”; obviously they’d moved on from Old Bill but given how fast technology evolves in our world (30 years ago a DiscMan was considered cutting edge) you’d think the robots back then would be a little less “indistinguishable from the guests”. Finally, I’m also having a lot of fun playing “Spot the gun” 😃 I’m loving the fact the Man In Black’s gun is a cartridge-firing LeMat. I’d love to know where they found one of those - as far as I know the modern repros of the gun are cap & ball revolvers; the RL centrefire LeMat revolver looks nothing like the cap & ball model which is in the show. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/840 "2016-11-29T23:10:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also Young Ed Harris doesn’t look very different from Old Ed Harris. [Here’s a photo from 1987’s The Abyss.](http://www.sundaydumbday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-Abyss-Ed-Harris-Aliens.jpg) Exactly! Everyone knows what Harris looked like 20-30 years ago. You can’t just sub in some actor and say “oh, that’s a young Ed Harris” ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/841 "2016-11-29T23:36:15Z")
Didn’t a video earlier in the thread debunk the William = MiB thing pretty handedly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413.md?page=43)