# Westworld - premieres Sunday (show spoilers as airs) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 1, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413 "2016-10-01T21:12:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1042 "2016-12-06T19:27:12Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > So was anyone else as disappointed by the resolution of the William/MiB–Dolores story as I was? Not just the maze, but the whole plot was just a red herring. I thought that he had discovered something important about the park or its hosts. I thought he had an agenda that was as big as Fords that would eventually lead to conflict about the future of the park and the development of the hosts’ consciousness. > > But none of that was true, and it didn’t pay off in any way whatsoever. He was on a wild goose chase. He was crazy and stupid and unsympathetic as a young man, and crazy and stupid and unsympathetic as an old man. The story would have played out exactly the same without him. Someone else would have been with Dolores when she began her reveries, and she would have wandered off to the old town eventually, and even that wouldn’t have mattered because Ford was going to reprogram her to “kill” him either way. It was all just filler to keep us distracted and entertained as they doled out the 75 minutes or so of real story they had over ten weeks. > > True, without William, Dolores might never have gone out to the valley where the old town was, but she probably would have. I imagine a lot of guests take her on whatever adventure they go on, and some of them must end up on that train (or why would it be there?). And she wouldn’t have found the photograph without William to leave it, but again, so what? She was programmed to ignore anything about the outside world until she heard the magic get-woke phrase, at which point any comment by a guest about the outside world might have triggered her reveries. And again, it doesn’t matter, because even if she never left the loop of going to town, meeting Teddy or a guest, going home, and getting raped and/or rescued every day, she still would have been reprogrammed by Ford for his little performance of the Delos’s Restaurant Masscaree. The whole story line was for nothing. Just like _Lost_. I would argue that William/MiB learning that the maze wasn’t about or for him was the “Beheading of Ned Stark at the end of Game of Thrones Season 1” moment. We thought this was going to be his story and he is effectively killed off as a person of moral interest to us. And the fact that the real WW story is about the maze, i.e., the emerging consciousness of the Hosts and their rejection of Humans and the park existence is what will drive the next few seasons. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1043 "2016-12-06T19:31:20Z")
Thanks for the Wyatt explanation - the confusion is the POVs of Delores and Teddy both showing another host doing some shooting - when in fact there was niether, it was all Delores. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1044 "2016-12-06T19:53:56Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > I would argue that William/MiB learning that the maze wasn’t about or for him was the “Beheading of Ned Stark at the end of Game of Thrones Season 1” moment. We thought this was going to be his story and he is effectively killed off as a person of moral interest to us. And the fact that the real WW story is about the maze, i.e., the emerging consciousness of the Hosts and their rejection of Humans and the park existence is what will drive the next few seasons. This is what I was thinking. Dolores isn’t a supporting character in his story, he’s a supporting character in hers. Also he did make her realize more what humanity is actually like, since she thought that William would save her and then realized he was William. I had wondered why we hadn’t seen more from the guests perspectives, but the story isn’t really about them. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1045 "2016-12-06T20:46:52Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > Other than being angry that the MiB = William thing was confirmed, I thought it was a solid finale! > > I have a few observations that haven’t been mentioned here: > > - Dolores and Meave switched roles: I think it’s interesting that the two robots who became self aware did so by different means, and then switched once becoming awakened. Meave achieved her awakening by being violent and bloodthirsty, whereas Dolores achieved slowly and much more introspectively. Yet their decisions after being awakened switched. Meave decided to not kill humanity after seeing the human mother and daughter, and Dolores decided to kill Ford and a bunch of other people. A pretty cool role-reversal if you ask me. > > - There never were two timelines (But there kinda were): This was also really clever to me. Technically, what we saw happen on screen was all within one timeline because we followed Dolores as she was reliving her memories. She was remembering things from 30 years ago that actually happened, but as we were seeing them they weren’t happening. So the show was technically only on one timeline! > > - The person who added the extra code into Meave: Ah, the economics of television. I think the “secret coder” will be revealed as someone else next season and will have a role to play. Notice that they never said it was Ford, we all just assumed it was. I think the writers did that intentionally to set up next season while simultaneously giving themselves an out if they only had this one season. Only one season? Surely it was Ford who did that to fit his plan! Renewed for another season? "We never said it was Ford who did that! It was actually (Elsie, Arnold, Bernard, etc.). I think Ford programmed her escape to coincide with his board speech, to draw the security personnel away, and create a diversion. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1046 "2016-12-06T21:24:12Z")
> [@Disheavel](#): > > I wish I could have seen this episode without having figured out the WIlliam = MIB as it would have been awe inspiring for weaving everything together, but even a casual viewer would have been hard pressed not to see it. Well, THIS casual viewer didn’t see it, and it blew my mind. Obviously, I wasn’t reading this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1047 "2016-12-06T21:31:37Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > Well, THIS casual viewer didn’t see it, and it blew my mind. Obviously, I wasn’t reading this thread. Did you think anything weird was happening with how the editing was and with some of the dialogue being ambiguous, or did it take you completely by surprise? ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1048 "2016-12-06T21:47:41Z")
When the escaping Maeve first sees Asian fighter world robots she asks the tech, Felix, what the heck? I believe his, “It’s complicated” must have been a wink and nod to LOST. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1049 "2016-12-06T21:59:03Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > What was up the shot lingering on Ford’s hand, when he went to shake Bernard’s hand. Didn’t he say once that you could tell the older hosts by their hands? “Oh for fuck’s sake! You’re not one of us. You’re one of them!” ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1050 "2016-12-06T22:25:42Z")
It’s interesting chunks of this episode seemed to be taken from the 1970s movie a lot of people I know haven’t seen - particularly the “control room getting locked down and the robots waking up to go on a rampage” elements. I liked the Samurai World element too - I was wondering if there were other “worlds” in the park, or if it was all just Wild West theming. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1051 "2016-12-06T22:32:56Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > So was anyone else as disappointed by the resolution of the William/MiB–Dolores story as I was? Not just the maze, but the whole plot was just a red herring. I thought that he had discovered something important about the park or its hosts. I thought he had an agenda that was as big as Fords that would eventually lead to conflict about the future of the park and the development of the hosts’ consciousness. > > But none of that was true, and it didn’t pay off in any way whatsoever. He was on a wild goose chase. He was crazy and stupid and unsympathetic as a young man, and crazy and stupid and unsympathetic as an old man. The story would have played out exactly the same without him. … Yes. And the psychology was bad: he starts out as a kind idealist, and is instantly turned into a sourpuss sadistic asshole by seeing his Robot Love look right at him but fail to recognize him. And he _knows_ that the robot’s minds get wiped. Yet we are still asked to believe in that tired old chestnut: the Good Man, Disappointed By A Faithless Woman, Turns Hard and Cold. Poor, poor guy! It was just plain bad writing. Similarly with the Anthony Hopkins character. Ford is consistently shown to be dismissive of the robots–as cold toward them as if they were washing machines. His dead partner was the one who wanted them to be treated with dignity–and Ford has nothing but contempt for that idea. But wow, Heel Turn: he loves them after all! He is willing to sacrifice himself so that they may achieve autonomy! What a twist! And the best idea the writers had for what was the most compelling part of the show–the examination of AI developing self-awareness–was a leftover from the _Hostel_ movies (by way of Dostoyevsky): ‘You must _kill_ to become your highest self!’ How unimaginative. …I’ll watch the show when it returns, but I’m very disappointed. We all suspended our disbelief out of a faith that the show had been carefully crafted. Now I’m thinking it was a bit more slap-dash than that. Without boobs, this wouldn’t be doing well. It would never have gotten good ratings had it been on Syfy instead of on HBO. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1052 "2016-12-06T22:33:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Instead, we just got a guy trying to find a maze, and being disappointed to find that the maze didn’t exist. Well, it existed, but the maze was not for him. Of course, how he found out about the thing in the first place, let alone thought to look under scalps for it (and it’s unclear why he’d have to - it’s not like the maze icon itself seems especially rare; incidental examples of it are all over the place) is likely to remain unexplored. I also don’t get the new “narrative”, which seems to end with the robot lovers on the beach; her dying, him weeping… how does a human guest fit into this? I’d’ve thought a “narrative” would be something akin to a choose-your-own-adventure book, with the guest able to make a wide variety of choices and the hosts programmed with a response for each one. Was the guest supposed to be in the Teddy role, manipulated into forming an emotional bond with Dolores just to have her die in his arms on a moonlit beach? I guess it’s a roller-coaster…_for the heart!_ ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1053 "2016-12-07T02:39:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I also don’t get the new “narrative”, which seems to end with the robot lovers on the beach; her dying, him weeping… how does a human guest fit into this? I’d’ve thought a “narrative” would be something akin to a choose-your-own-adventure book, with the guest able to make a wide variety of choices and the hosts programmed with a response for each one. Was the guest supposed to be in the Teddy role, manipulated into forming an emotional bond with Dolores just to have her die in his arms on a moonlit beach? I guess it’s a roller-coaster…_for the heart!_ I don’t think there really is a new narrative. That was just an excuse for Ford to work towards gathering the whole Board and assemble a bunch of hosts to murder them. Everything else he attributed to the new narrative was clearing the way for Dolores to reach the church and discover the maze puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1054 "2016-12-07T02:45:12Z")
To my eye that scene is not part of the new narrative, it the close of the the current one and the tease of a next one, the tease that Ford then elaborates on before the thousand mile journey into night begins with one bloody step. No question lots of bits that do not fit perfectly upon full analysis … but while it is more than a sitcom I am still will to cut it some slack if it is fun and has interesting characters. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1055 "2016-12-07T02:49:34Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > I don’t think there really is a new narrative. That was just an excuse for Ford to work towards gathering the whole Board and assemble a bunch of hosts to murder them. Everything else he attributed to the new narrative was clearing the way for Dolores to reach the church and discover the maze puzzle. Fair enough, but the board members and other observers applauded so it must have _looked_ like a narrative to them, whatever a “narrative” actually is. Also, Ford didn’t really assemble a bunch of hosts, or at least not directly. For some reason, Maeve got the notion to head downstairs to livestock and send all the previously deactivated hosts on a rampage (I don’t recall seeing Dolores’s original “father”, was he in there?) even though it didn’t seem necessary or even useful in furthering her escape. If it was something Ford _wanted_ her to do, then we start entering the murky world of fictional villains who can somehow manage to plan twenty steps ahead and have that plan come off with perfect timing despite all the random elements inherent in their execution. By the way, Armistice is now Halfarmistice. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1056 "2016-12-07T03:08:11Z")
I just watched the first episode. Interesting. Very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1057 "2016-12-07T03:23:46Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Yes. And the psychology was bad: he starts out as a kind idealist, and is **instantly** turned into a sourpuss sadistic asshole by seeing his Robot Love look right at him but fail to recognize him. And he _knows_ that the robot’s minds get wiped. Yet we are still asked to believe in that tired old chestnut: the Good Man, Disappointed By A Faithless Woman, Turns Hard and Cold. Poor, poor guy! Emphasis added. See that wasn’t my takeaway at all. There was no “instantly”, but first weeks in the back country of discovering that he wasn’t a kind idealist, but rather a Walter White who pretended to be. That he _liked_ butchery and rape. Followed by _years_ of coming back to visit Dolores and finding she is always caught in her loop, never remembers him and is seemingly nothing special or unique like he had thought. He very clearly says that after many visits he eventually got tired of her and her by then stale narrative, ultimately abandoning his pursuit of her until this latest interaction. He was never a good guy, but someone pretending to be as his daughter pointed out to him after his wife dies. The MiB ultimately turned out to be both as much as we thought and a lot less. On a reality level he did turn out to be a big deal - the majority stockholder of Delos and the man who saved the park way back when. But on the other hand he is kinda clueless and always has been - he really has just been playing a game, without much deeper thought by the end beyond that he was bored and wanted a better challenge. I don’t find that bad writing, really - just a reveal that he is ultimately a footnote, albeit a significant one, in Dolores’ development. Similarly I think Ford’s careful interactions with Bernard and his repeated criticism of humanity laid out the foundation for this plot-twist quite well. He’s more anti-hero than noble soul - Arnold would never have killed the director. But I think the seeming fact that Ford considers the hosts to be superior to humans speaks both to his vanity and his cynicism. He’s at most half-altruistic, but also half-nihilistic and half-guiltily regretful ( that’s right - three halves 😃 ). I doubt the gentle Arnold we saw would have vindictively unleashed hell on humanity. Ford did it with smile and because he thinks his creation is an improvement on the original model. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1058 "2016-12-07T03:27:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I also don’t get the new “narrative”, which seems to end with the robot lovers on the beach; her dying, him weeping… how does a human guest fit into this? The human would play the Teddy role. He’s just there as a stand-in for the performance, so the board could witness the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1059 "2016-12-07T03:41:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … then we start entering the murky world of fictional villains who can somehow manage to plan twenty steps ahead and have that plan come off with perfect timing despite all the random elements inherent in their execution … Calling Hari Seldon. And not ours. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > … discovering that he wasn’t a kind idealist, but rather a Walter White who pretended to be. That he _liked_ butchery and rape. … Problem being that that transformation was very rushed in its telling and more told than shown. Walter White into Heisenberg worked, partly because the dissatisfaction of WW with who he was was clear from word go and the reveal of his truer self was shown over time …this few minutes of screen time to picking up his black hat not so much so. It was done more the twist that for most it by then was not than for the character. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1060 "2016-12-07T06:42:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t recall seeing Dolores’s original “father”, was he in there? He was already on a train out with a head full of IP. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413/1061 "2016-12-07T11:14:03Z")
There was some great mirroring of the first episode in the MiB/Dolores scenes. In the first episode the MiB drags Dolores unwillingly off to subject her to some unpleasantness; in the last it’s Dolores dragging the MiB away and throwing him around. In the first episode Teddy’s efforts to play the hero are impotent gestures built into the narrative to give the guests someone to defeat; in the last Teddy’s heroics genuinely defeat the MiB (if only by knocking him over) and save Dolores. We were also treated to the “someone’s coming to save me” double bluff - it’s Teddy that’s coming but no, it’s William she thinks is coming but no, it really is Teddy. Which is some nifty writing. Finally, of course, the whole point of the MiB arc is not just to show how he went from white hat to black hat, but to demonstrate once again that the all-powerful guests - who “own the world” and can withstand a hail of gunfire without damage while killing off a whole village - are ultimately impotent in the face of what is to come. I liked the audience sucker punch when what seems like a genuine tender moment on the beach turned out to be yet another planned and scripted dialogue but wondered how Ford knew Dolores would be expiring on the beach when the only reason she died was because the MiB - a non-host - stabbed her. And one more thought - when Bernard first looks at Maeve’s code in this episode there is a step visible after “INFILTRATE”. At first I thought it said “DECLINE” which put a very different spin on the ending but I went back and checked and it says “DECEIVE”, suggesting that going back for her daughter wasn’t part of the programming at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westworld-premieres-sunday-show-spoilers-as-airs/767413.md?page=54)