# We've learned these last few days that the government is too big **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491 "2013-05-16T06:49:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/41 "2013-05-16T13:57:57Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > It is easier for ‘rogue agents’ to operate under the radar in a larger government. No it isn’t. On the contrary, if anything it’s easier in a smaller government where there’s less manpower for oversight. > [@Boogly](#): > > A larger government can more easily be more oppressive and undemocratic than a smaller government. Not true at all. Any government big enough to function can easily be grossly oppressive. Being brutal and oppressive is easy and simple; it doesn’t require the kind of complex and nuanced activity that calls for a larger government. It just calls for thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/42 "2013-05-16T14:02:19Z")
The POTUS doesn’t appoint everyone in the executive branch. His appointees don’t, either. Most federal employees, including the ones involved in the IRS kerfuffle, are career civil servants. Those guys _used_ to be accountable to the President; thanks to the Pendleton Act (and rightly so), they’re not anymore. So what do you expect Obama to do? He can’t fire any of these people until they’ve done something wrong. > [@Boogly](#): > > It is easier for ‘rogue agents’ to operate under the radar in a larger government. If only a few rogue agents can cause this type of uproar, what damage might be done if multiple rogue agents banded together to a common end? It’s an uproar because they were caught, and they were caught because the large, mostly apolitical government apparatus involved outed them. The system worked. > [@](#): > > A larger government can more easily be more oppressive and undemocratic than a smaller government. Really? What’s the voter turnout for commission elections in your county? How about for mayor of your town? The bigger the government, the more incentive voters have to be involved and the more democratic it is. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/43 "2013-05-16T14:09:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But for the public, the only person we can hold accountable is the President. Well, that’s just nonsense. There’s a whole herd of them infesting Capitol Hill that are accountable to the public, at least in theory. Last time I voted, I seem to recall having a whole list of positions I was asked to help fill. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/44 "2013-05-16T14:10:25Z")
> [@Boogly](#): > > A larger government can more easily be more oppressive and undemocratic than a smaller government. I don’t think so. Nazi Germany, Cuba, and North Korea all have or had pretty small, streamlined governments and are or were pretty oppressive. So with our large government, we have a situation where some IRS agents asked some groups for information which they had every right to ask for. None of these groups were adversely affected. I think there are many solutions out there in search of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/45 "2013-05-16T14:17:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The issue isn’t micromanagement though, it’s accountability. Is the President accountable for what the government he is constitutionally required to manage does, or isn’t he? If he is not, then doesn’t this mean that the government is not accountable to the people? I think you are making too much out of a slip of the tongue. He’s trying to defend Obama and he did so by saying something that he probably doesn’t really believe. Now, I certainly think there are good arguments for making the government smaller, but this isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/46 "2013-05-16T14:23:06Z")
So your position is that the President can be held accountable for the performance of the government under his watch? If so, then no, it’s not a good argument to shrink government. However, many here are making the opposite argument and handwaving away the fundamental problem with it: the fact that a government that cannot be controlled by elected officials is an unaccountable, antidemocratic entity. If they don’t want to do anything about that, that’s fine, but they should never use the argument that activist government is fine because it’s accountable to the people. They’ve just argued that it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/47 "2013-05-16T14:23:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And what if the person involved isn’t punished for their wrongdoing? In fact, what happens if they get a promotion, which has been known to happen? Like if their boss says they’re doing a “heck of a job”, you mean? I can imagine two possibilities: 1. Don’t let the government be accountable to the people. That seems to be what you’re suggesting: you seem to think they should be kicked out by the rest of the government or something (I can’t figure out exactly what you’re calling for, but it doesn’t seem to be accountable to the people). 2. Let the government be accountable to the people. That’s done through elections. Make the screwup an issue in the next election. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/48 "2013-05-16T14:26:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So your position is that the President can be held accountable for the performance of the government under his watch? > > If so, then no, it’s not a good argument to shrink government. > > However, many here are making the opposite argument and handwaving away the fundamental problem with it: the fact that a government that cannot be controlled by elected officials is an unaccountable, antidemocratic entity. If they don’t want to do anything about that, that’s fine, but they should never use the argument that activist government is fine because it’s accountable to the people. They’ve just argued that it is not. Do you know what they call the type of government where the leader has absolute control of the government? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/49 "2013-05-16T14:28:57Z")
Absolutely. The President, as head of the executive branch, is responsible for the executive branch. But again, limiting Presidential rebukes only to elections is a copout. Democracy involves more than just elections. A poorly performing President will, and should, lose political capital. What I’m calling for is simple. For elected officials to be responsible for the government they run. If that’s impossible, then the government has to be shrunken to save democracy, given that an unaccountable government is antidemocratic. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/50 "2013-05-16T14:30:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you know what they call the type of government where the leader has absolute control of the government? Not absolute control. Responsibility and accountability. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/51 "2013-05-16T14:40:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not absolute control. Responsibility and accountability. No-absolute control. To suggest that the leader of a country be punished for anything the government does wrong without giving the leader absolute control of that government is asinine, no matter how large or small the government. To suggest that the government be somehow be shrunk to a size where this could be possible is equally asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/52 "2013-05-16T14:41:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > …many here are making the opposite argument and handwaving away the fundamental problem with it: the fact that a government that cannot be controlled by elected officials is an unaccountable, antidemocratic entity. If they don’t want to do anything about that, that’s fine, but they should never use the argument that activist government is fine because it’s accountable to the people. They’ve just argued that it is not. What the hell is an “activist government”? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/53 "2013-05-16T14:41:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-absolute control. To suggest that the leader of a country be punished for anything the government does wrong without giving the leader absolute control of that government is asinine, no matter how large or small the government. To suggest that the government be somehow be shrunk to a size where this could be possible is equally asinine. So basically you’re okay with a democratically unaccountable government. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/54 "2013-05-16T14:45:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So basically you’re okay with a democratically unaccountable government. When did the topic of this thread change to “Non sequiturs”? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/55 "2013-05-16T14:50:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Absolutely. The President, as head of the executive branch, is responsible for the executive branch. But again, limiting Presidential rebukes only to elections is a copout. Democracy involves more than just elections. A poorly performing President will, and should, lose political capital. > > What I’m calling for is simple. For elected officials to be responsible for the government they run. If that’s impossible, then the government has to be shrunken to save democracy, given that an unaccountable government is antidemocratic. There’s also impeachment. But ultimately you’re left with two choices – remove the president, either immediately or at the end of his term, or don’t remove the president. What middle ground do you propose for holding the president accountable? Docking his pay? A stern lecture? Nagging talking heads on cable networks? Oh wait, that last one is real. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/56 "2013-05-16T14:51:27Z")
Since when do conservatives want small government, anyway? Most of them seem to be in favor of expanding the power of the states. State and local government _is_ big government: Much of the role of the federal government is to keep the big government in check. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/57 "2013-05-16T14:54:53Z")
**adaher** - Are you as certain of your logic in this thread as you were of your logic about the skewed polls leading up to the last election? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/58 "2013-05-16T14:55:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So basically you’re okay with a democratically unaccountable government. Any government will be partly unaccountable. Otherwise, it becomes a patronage system. You can’t exercise government functions without functionaries who are insulated from politics. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/59 "2013-05-16T14:58:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When did the topic of this thread change to “Non sequiturs”? That’s part of the OP. If the government is beyond our elected officials control, such that they cannot be expected to take responsibility for it, then our government is unaccountable. True or false? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/60 "2013-05-16T14:59:56Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There’s also impeachment. But ultimately you’re left with two choices – remove the president, either immediately or at the end of his term, or don’t remove the president. > > What middle ground do you propose for holding the president accountable? Docking his pay? A stern lecture? Nagging talking heads on cable networks? Oh wait, that last one is real. There’s more to democracy than just voting and impeachment. When a President is doing a bad job, the public and Congress tend to tune him out. That’s why the President is scrambling. He knows he doesn’t have to worry about impeachment or an election, but he does worry about his agenda and his place in history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491.md?page=4)