# We've learned these last few days that the government is too big **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491 "2013-05-16T06:49:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/81 "2013-05-16T16:48:53Z")
**adaher** , seriously, how small do you think an organization has to be in order for its leader to know everything that’s happening in it to a degree that satisfies you? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/82 "2013-05-16T16:49:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I concede that a bigger government could be better, but one thing it can’t be is democratically accountable unless the elected officials can be held accountable for its performance. > > So unless I’m wrong, there seems to be only one of two broad solutions(the specifics can be more complicated of course): > > 1. Shrink the government so that elected officials can be held accountable > > 2. Hold elected officials accountable anyway. There is an option 3 that could be tried… 3) Elect more of the management level officials. Electing officials could be taken to extremes… (e.g. elect every single supervisor level IRS agent) and there is a danger of political charm winning out over basic competence for positions which had been considered largely non-partisan. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/83 "2013-05-16T16:51:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The point is that he can’t fire them until wrongdoing is discovered. It’s been discovered, and now they’ll be fired. What more do you want? He wants specific blame to be laid directly at the President, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/84 "2013-05-16T17:13:29Z")
If a racist McDonalds franchise owner unilaterally decides to stop serving blacks, and the first the CEO hears of it is an Expose in the Atlanta times, does that mean he should resign. Does the fact that this could happen without his prior knowledge mean that McDonalds is too big? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/85 "2013-05-16T17:20:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **adaher** , seriously, how small do you think an organization has to be in order for its leader to know everything that’s happening in it to a degree that satisfies you? Forget politics, the average elementary school principal doesn’t know what the teachers are doing on a day to day basis. If one of them is having the kids recite the pledge to Kim Jong Un he probably isn’t going to find out until it hits the media. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/86 "2013-05-16T17:41:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Conservative journalists being conservative journalists, I’ll believe it when I see actual evidence. Conservatives tend to whine even when they have nothing to whine about. :: post sniped :: One of the rather interesting things about this whole I.R.S. scandal is the liberal response on this board. It is like this: #1. There is no scandal. It is just conservatives whining. #2. So what, those groups that were targeted were obviously conservative and political and deserve the extra scrutiny. Why? Just 'cause they are conservatives and all conservatives are sneaky liars #3. Targeting conservatives really wasn’t bad. It didn’t really hurt anything. #4. The government is so big that holding the President, the head of the government, responsible for the governments actions is just silly. Unless the President was Bush, of course. All of which are nothing but a thin veneer to cover the underlying idea. That underlying idea, of course, is that since it was the ‘BAD’ side being targeted it doesn’t really matter. No real outrage, with a few exceptions. That attitude, from conservatives or liberals, is disgusting. Entirely too many people on both sides of the aisle decided that honesty, integrity and honor are things that interfere with the political process. They are to be used when convenient and tossed when inconvenient. It is time that we start demanding accountability from our elected leaders by actually holding them accountable. Instead, we allow the elected leaders to sacrifice someone while (generally) not addressing the real problem. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/87 "2013-05-16T17:51:51Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > It is time that we start demanding accountability from our elected leaders by actually holding them accountable. Instead, we allow the elected leaders to sacrifice someone while (generally) not addressing the real problem. In this specific instance, what do you mean by accountability? Because it seem like your version of accountability is that Obama should have resigned yesterday, regardless of what the facts may be. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/88 "2013-05-16T18:13:19Z")
Yes it seems that the only form of accountability that conservatives will accept is for Obama to no longer be president. I think we’re still waiting for any other suggestions on what form they would like this accountability to take. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/89 "2013-05-16T18:34:53Z")
Ehh, too easy: they’d just say that _in this case_, the accountability would be resignation or impeachment for his “flagrant abuses of power and targeting of political enemies” or whatever. In all other cases… whatever. Maybe it’d vary. But this one is the important one. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/90 "2013-05-16T18:40:04Z")
The government is big. But I am more concerned about why top officials seem to lose their memories…Eric Holder cannot remember much. He is the AG, but he seems not to know his responsibilities…is this common in Washington? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/91 "2013-05-16T18:44:19Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > It is just conservatives whining. Note that you’re not disagreeing. > [@](#): > > #2. So what, those groups that were targeted were obviously conservative and political and deserve the extra scrutiny. Why? Just 'cause they are conservatives and all conservatives are sneaky liars The key word is “political”. In fact, that’s the only relevant one under the tax code. > [@](#): > > #3. Targeting conservatives really wasn’t bad. It didn’t really hurt anything. Fact: None of these groups, despite being obviously political, was denied tax-free status. None. > [@](#): > > #4. The government is so big that holding the President, the head of the government, responsible for the governments actions is just silly. Unless the President was Bush, of course. Fer crissakes, are you comparing this with _going to war_? :rolleyes: Are you interested in being taken seriously here or aren’t you? > [@](#): > > All of which are nothing but a thin veneer to cover the underlying idea. That underlying idea, of course, is that since it was the ‘BAD’ side being targeted it doesn’t really matter. No real outrage, with a few exceptions. > > That attitude, from conservatives or liberals, is disgusting. Or would be, if it were in any way derived from reality, rather than being made of straw. > [@](#): > > Entirely too many people on both sides of the aisle decided that honesty, integrity and honor are things that interfere with the political process. They are to be used when convenient and tossed when inconvenient. And there’s the RO, combined with both-sides-ism, right on schedule. Well done. > [@](#): > > It is time that we start demanding accountability from our elected leaders by actually holding them accountable. It is time that those indignantly demanding accountability describe what it would consist of. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/92 "2013-05-16T18:50:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The government is big. > But I am more concerned about why top officials seem to lose their memories..Eric Holder cannot remember much. He is the AG, but he seems not to know his responsibilities..is this common in Washington? I think you should ask Bush AG Alberto “I Don’t Recall” Gonzales. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/93 "2013-05-16T19:02:42Z")
**adaher** , what would you need to see to believe that Obama was being held accountable? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/94 "2013-05-16T19:16:07Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > **adaher** - Are you as certain of your logic in this thread as you were of your logic about the skewed polls leading up to the last election? This is the shit that gets a pass here. Attack his argument ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/95 "2013-05-16T19:19:55Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Ehh, too easy: they’d just say that _in this case_, the accountability would be resignation or impeachment for his “flagrant abuses of power and targeting of political enemies” or whatever. “Whatever” meaning mainly a charge of President While Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/96 "2013-05-16T19:22:35Z")
> [@Robb](#): > > **adaher** , what would you need to see to believe that Obama was being held accountable? For him to admit the mistake, make public what he did about it and what he will do to make sure it doesn’t occur again. That would probably be a great step and maybe a good move, politically. Alas, he doesn’t have the cahones to pull it off. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/97 "2013-05-16T19:24:52Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I think you should ask Bush AG Alberto “I Don’t Recall” Gonzales. Was that a good excuse when it was used then? If not, why do you bring it up? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/98 "2013-05-16T19:28:10Z")
Just out of curiosity, has anyone surveyed the new groups and found any commonalities among those whose work is more political than “social”. Personally, I think you should just admit that the system is corrupt and do away with all the rules, just let anybody fund anything to any extent, and see where that takes you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/99 "2013-05-16T19:32:08Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > For him to admit the mistake, make public what he did about it and what he will do to make sure it doesn’t occur again. > That would probably be a great step and maybe a good move, politically. > > Alas, he doesn’t have the cahones to pull it off. Perhaps you haven’t been keeping up. He already \*has \*done all that. Better try again. PS: It’s spelled “cojones”. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/100 "2013-05-16T19:36:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Perhaps you haven’t been keeping up. He already \*has \*done all that. Better try again. > > PS: It’s spelled “cojones”. Oh? He accepted responsibility? Cause all I’ve heard is deflection. What has he done to ensure it doesn’t happen again? ps. I never was any good at Spanish, I wasted 4 years of foreign language on German. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491.md?page=6)