# We've learned these last few days that the government is too big **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491 "2013-05-16T06:49:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/101 "2013-05-16T19:36:40Z")
All I’m saying is that I had a Jack in the Box Bacon Cheeseburger from a Jack in the Box in Oakland, California, and the bacon was cold. We need to fire Jack. Because if he can’t oversee every bacon microwaving, then what the hell is he being paid for? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/102 "2013-05-16T19:38:56Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > For him to admit the mistake, make public what he did about it and what he will do to make sure it doesn’t occur again. > That would probably be a great step and maybe a good move, politically. > > Alas, he doesn’t have the cahones to pull it off. Just make sure we’re all on the same page here, what specific mistake(s) did he, personally, as the President, make that he needs to apologize for? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/103 "2013-05-16T19:42:27Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > This is the shit that gets a pass here. > Attack his argument Its relevant as it goes to the OPs political credibility. Its been shown that what he’s ‘sure’ of is sometimes the exact opposite of reality. Self reflection is a good thing. We should encourage it, not discourage it. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/104 "2013-05-16T19:46:43Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Was that a good excuse when it was used then? > > If not, why do you bring it up? Because **ralph** asked whether this type of memory failure was common in Washington. I was pointing out that it has a history common to both parties. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/105 "2013-05-16T19:48:57Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Just make sure we’re all on the same page here, what specific mistake(s) did he, personally, as the President, make that he needs to apologize for? **Kearsen** was careful with his wording: > [@](#): > > For him to admit the mistake IOW, “Mistakes were made”. You could ask Reagan about admitting that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/106 "2013-05-16T19:54:10Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Oh? He accepted responsibility? Cause all I’ve heard is deflection. Try changing the channel. Not that I have any interest in spoonfeeding you further, but you can start [here](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/16/obama-to-name-budget-official-as-acting-irs-chief/?hpt=hp_t1). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/107 "2013-05-16T20:47:55Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > For him to admit the mistake He’s admitted the mistake. He said it was a terrible thing, inexcusable, blah blah blah. What more do you want? > [@](#): > > make public what he did about it and what he will do to make sure it doesn’t occur again. He’s already gotten the resignation of a senior official, and there’s a criminal investigation at the highest level. Again, what more do you want? Frankly, there’s a huge appearance of partisan hypocrisy here from the right. If you can show that you applied similar standards of behavior to our last president when, for example, people under his command were torturing prisoners (which maybe I’m just a bleeding heart but is A LITTLE BIT WORSE THAN LOOKING EXTRA-HARD AT THEIR PAPERWORK), it’d go a long way toward eliminating that appearance. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/108 "2013-05-16T21:09:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He’s already gotten the resignation of a senior official, and there’s a criminal investigation at the highest level. Again, what more do you want? A Republican President, duh. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/109 "2013-05-16T23:36:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/299829-axelrod-government-too-big-for-obama-to-have-known-about-irs-targeting](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/299829-axelrod-government-too-big-for-obama-to-have-known-about-irs-targeting) > > David Axelrod: Part of being president is there’s so much beneath you that you can’t know because the government is so vast. > > Conservatives have long recommended a solution to this problem. But I’d be interested in hearing how liberals would solve this. What is the solution to a government so “vast”, to use Axelrod’s word, that our elected leaders can’t manage it? The government is not too big. This was an isolated incident in which a few middle managers acted. Plus, I don’t really disagree with what they were doing. Therefore, the premise is wrong. The government’s size is fine ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/110 "2013-05-17T00:19:06Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The government is not too big. This was an isolated incident in which a few middle managers acted. Plus, I don’t really disagree with what they were doing. Therefore, the premise is wrong. The government’s size is fine Well, it might not be fine, just that this situation isn’t a good indicator. Anyway, based on the information released thus far that I know of, I can see some mopes in the regional office realizing they have to enforce a vague rule - that these organizations have to be less than 50% “political” to qualify for tax-exempt status - and they see a lot of new organizations being formed under the new rules and they _sound_ kinda political with “tea party” names and whatnot, so why not send them the detailed questionnaires? Unless this gets a lot more grim, I’m not really feeling the outrage, here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/111 "2013-05-17T00:41:13Z")
If the President is serious about rooting out the problem, then he has someone to fire: > **[IRS Official in Charge During Tea Party Targeting Now Runs Health Care Office](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/05/irs-official-in-charge-during-tea-party-targeting-now-runs-health-care-office/)** > > Get breaking national and world news, broadcast video coverage, and exclusive interviews. Find the top news online at ABC news. The IRS official in charge during the Tea Party targeting now runs the health care office. I wonder if that’s the same office that raided that HMO and stole 10 million medical records without a warrant? I also wonder if the President knows about that yet. Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/112 "2013-05-17T00:44:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The IRS official in charge during the Tea Party targeting now runs the health care office. How lucky for the Republicans. For purposes of that last sentence and this one, I don’t believe in luck. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/113 "2013-05-17T00:45:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the President is serious about rooting out the problem, then he has someone to fire: > > [IRS Official in Charge During Tea Party Targeting Now Runs Health Care Office - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/05/irs-official-in-charge-during-tea-party-targeting-now-runs-health-care-office/) > > The IRS official in charge during the Tea Party targeting now runs the health care office. I wonder if that’s the same office that raided that HMO and stole 10 million medical records without a warrant? I also wonder if the President knows about that yet. Probably not. Since you have a track record of believing utter nonsense when it supports your ideology, I think it best to ask for cites for anything you claim. So cite? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/114 "2013-05-17T00:52:03Z")
Cite for what? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/115 "2013-05-17T00:57:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Cite for what? The stolen medical records. I’d like to hear more about that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/116 "2013-05-17T01:03:27Z")
> **[Suit Alleges IRS Improperly Seized 60 Million Personal Medical Records](https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgottlieb/2013/05/15/the-irs-raids-60-million-personal-medical-records/)** > > The Internal Revenue Service is facing a class action lawsuit alleging that more than 60 million personal medical records were improperly seized by agents from the embattled agency. According to a story by Courthousenews.com, an unnamed healthcare... Please inform the PResident if you know him personally. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/117 "2013-05-17T01:10:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [Suit Alleges IRS Improperly Seized 60 Million Personal Medical Records](http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgottlieb/2013/05/15/the-irs-raids-60-million-personal-medical-records/) > > Please inform the PResident if you know him personally. The president knows more than either of us. You linked me to a lawsuit. Has it been found in favor of the accusers? If not, I’m still waiting for the cite, because you stated this as fact. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/118 "2013-05-17T01:14:26Z")
Well, you can choose to believe they acted properly if you choose, but even if it was technically legal, they seized 10 million peoples’ medical records. Class actions rarely end up decided in favor of the defendant. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/119 "2013-05-17T01:17:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > even if it was technically legal, they seized 10 million peoples’ medical records. Did they? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491/120 "2013-05-17T01:19:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, you can choose to believe they acted properly if you choose, but even if it was technically legal, they seized 10 million peoples’ medical records. Class actions rarely end up decided in favor of the defendant. And you rarely are correct about a factual issue, but we have to evaluate ever case on its own merits. What probably happened, by the way, is they took the dude’s papers and it included that info on one of his drives. But I’ll wait until the facts are in, something you might want to do. But I understand how you wanted to slip in a nice piece of non-information to sell your other argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weve-learned-these-last-few-days-that-the-government-is-too-big/658491.md?page=7)