# Wgen did you discover that "reality" is inconsistent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738 "2009-07-02T20:47:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/1 "2009-07-02T20:47:38Z")
I remember the specific instant when I realized that the representational Universe in which we live is inconsistent, and that all the adults in the world were lying about it. I was in grade 2 and I laid my big pencil down on the desk. It started to roll on the tilted desk, I made a grab for it, and missed. I felt the pencil hit my foot, then heard it clatter to the floor. I bent over to pick it up – and realized it was sitting on my lap. How many of you have had that sudden moment of illumination when you finally realized that so-called “physical matter” is a myth? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/2 "2009-07-02T20:48:20Z")
Just now, with that convincing evidence of yours. My mind is blown! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/3 "2009-07-02T20:48:36Z")
Shoehorn butterhorse. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/4 "2009-07-02T21:45:51Z")
Reality can’t be inconsistent, since reality IS reality, even if we don’t understand all of it. A much more reasonable explanation is that it’s your perception of reality that’s inconsistent with reality. It’s time to stop smoking weed, or sleep a little more. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/5 "2009-07-02T21:57:32Z")
Anyone else wonder where 2nd graders get their crack from? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/6 "2009-07-02T21:59:10Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Reality can’t be inconsistent, since reality IS reality, even if we don’t understand all of it. A much more reasonable explanation is that it’s your perception of reality that’s inconsistent with reality. It’s time to stop smoking weed, or sleep a little more. I recommend smoking _more_ weed and learning to enjoy the inconsistencies. **Smash** , I can’t say as I’ve noticed reality being inconsistent, nor have I ever thought that physical matter was a myth. Could you elaborate more on what you mean by the “inconsistencies” in reality? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/7 "2009-07-02T22:07:49Z")
> [@The\_Weird\_One](#): > > I recommend smoking _more_ weed and learning to enjoy the inconsistencies. That’s perfectly fine until you reach the point that you think the inconsistencies are reality’s fault 🙂 Actually, I’m only half joking; I enjoy the occasional toke as much as anyone, but I also know a few people who got really schizophrenic and the one thing they had in common was shitloads of weed. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/8 "2009-07-02T22:23:12Z")
> [@The\_Weird\_One](#): > > I recommend smoking _more_ weed and learning to enjoy the inconsistencies. > > **Smash** , I can’t say as I’ve noticed reality being inconsistent, nor have I ever thought that physical matter was a myth. Could you elaborate more on what you mean by the “inconsistencies” in reality? I’m not quite trolling, but I _am_ being deliberately provocative to see which people have minds open enough to try and understand what I’m saying. When I write of “reality,” I’m referring to the representational world, the symbolic representations which we manipulate in our minds as a means of trying to understand the “thing-in-itself,” to use Kantian terminology. As I indicated in my anecdote, I realized at a very young age that the experiencial Universe was inconsistent – which is at odds with everything the grown-ups claimed at the time. In the years since, I have discovered that my discovery was far from unique, and that people ranging from the Gautama Buddha to Immanuel Kant to John Wheeler have also realized the degree to which the representational Universe seems to rely on our experiences and expectations rather than on some nebulous external quality of “objectivity.” I’m curious whether any of you also remember the specific point where it dawned on you that the world was inconsistent, and that the grown-ups had lied to you about the nature of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/9 "2009-07-02T22:45:08Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I’m curious whether any of you also remember the specific point where it dawned on you that the world was inconsistent, and that the grown-ups had lied to you about the nature of reality. That last part bothers me, because it seems to assume that everybody has had experiences which make them go beyond a “consistent” view of reality. When it comes to physical reality, I have yet to find any macroscopic phenomenon that gives lie to the existence of “physical matter.” (Do you mean to refer to spiritual matter as an alternative? Or just to say that what we call matter is an illusion, or some kind “surface” of something quite different?) Even as far as QM blows away the a priori “existence” of fundamental particles, I have had it explained to me by a professor how I can still point to someone present and meaningfully say that they are “there.” The explanation makes sufficient sense to me to accept it as true. In a nutshell, there is no unobserved electron “there” but we can point to the wave function as real. * * * What I eventually did discover was that my parents, older sibs, and most of my teachers were “promoting” a false view of politics, society, international affairs, and interpersonal relations that fell apart in college years, starting with freshman year, and more so with extended work experiences after college. Every half-decade my mind is blown by not only changes in the world, but by fresh insights as to what can possibly happen, even beyond advancing technology, shifting mores, and unforeseen dynamics. I couldn’t \*\*make up \*\*some of the stuff I’ve experienced, or what has happpened close to me, in a trillion years. Does that tie in any for you? -^ ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/10 "2009-07-02T22:55:50Z")
Uh… what? ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/11 "2009-07-02T22:58:45Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Shoehorn butterhorse. I lol’d. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/12 "2009-07-02T23:04:51Z")
> [@True Blue Jack](#): > > When it comes to physical reality, I have yet to find any macroscopic phenomenon that gives lie to the existence of “physical matter.” (Do you mean to refer to spiritual matter as an alternative? Or just to say that what we call matter is an illusion, or some kind “surface” of something quite different?) Let me give you something practical as an example. I am going to assume that you are sighted for this, so correct me if I’m wrong. We know that where the optic nerve connects to the retina, there are no sensory nerves. This is the “blind spot,” as they call it. Yet you do not observe this blind spot, nor, in your memories, is there a big black smudge in the middle of them. Here is proof positive that the Universe of our perception is inconsistent, for we can actually do simple experiments to show objects popping in and out of existence as we move them in and out of our blind spot. As I bring your attention to it now, you will be able to see your nose. However, if you think back to, say, the events of yesterday, your nose is not present in your memories. In fact, I think you will find that most of your memories consist of seeing yourself in the _third person_, a view you could not possibly have obtained through your eyeballs. Yet it is these memories and these perceptions which we refer to as reality, and it is here that we exist. I don’t know about your parents, but mine were naive materialists. When I first discovered Plato and tried explaining to them the difference between the Ideal and our perceptions, they mocked me and forked food off my plate, saying, “If you don’t exist, then you won’t mind if we eat your dinner, haw haw haw.” > [@Creepy Cop](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/150): > > Every half-decade my mind is blown by not only changes in the world, but by fresh insights as to what can possibly happen, even beyond advancing technology, shifting mores, and unforeseen dynamics. Ah, but the question is, until we established the “fact” (in the Kantian sense of meaning “so many people agree, that we consider this to be accurate, even though it is not a metaphysical truth”) that, for example, the world was roung – was it? The probability wave representing a flat Earth and a round Earth did not collapse until we had some way of testing the system. And since not everyone accepts the Copenhagen interpretation, there is every possibility that the Earth may, indeed, still be flat; it is highly unlikely, but since the wave never collapses into a single Eigenstate, it always remains a possibility. And the Universe itself, being simply an overlapping series of probability waves in constant flux, may one day simply… pop. Like a soap bubble. And, in fact, may already have done so, many times. The Everett-Wheeler model suggests this is happening constantly. So as you go through life with your mores and knowledge softening and changing – is it really _you_ that’s changing, or is it the Universe? And is there a difference? The Participatory Anthropic Model suggests there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![AmberLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@AmberLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmberLee)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/13 "2009-07-02T23:08:42Z")
No particular comment on the OP, but the last time I smoked the ganja my SO (who doesn’t smoke) kept starting conversations EXACTLY like this, just for his own amusement at my reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/14 "2009-07-02T23:09:41Z")
I remember talking to a friend who was color-blind. His parents had repainted his room, and they’d painted the walls a soft yellow color. He was pissed as hell, because he’d been living in the room for several months, thinking the walls were white, when they were really a “girly” color. Considering that he was unable to even perceive the color, I’m not sure how he arrived at the conclusion that that shade of yellow was girly, but it was kind of a surprise to realize that the way I perceived the world was not necessarily what the world looked like. Later, this was compounded in a science class where I learned that different colors are just different frequencies of radiation. There is no such thing as “red,” it’s just the way our brains perceive that specific frequency. However, I wouldn’t consider this to be evidence of an inconsistent universe, merely an example of our inconsistent perception of it. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/15 "2009-07-02T23:12:31Z")
I know what you are talking about. What if D-O-G was really spelled C-A-T? Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/16 "2009-07-03T00:18:16Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Yet it is these memories and these perceptions which we refer to as reality, and it is here that we exist. Um… no, we call these “memories” and “perceptions.” I do not think the term “reality” means what you think it means. Try [here](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reality) for some definitions. In particular, there is this definition: “something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.” Maybe what you’re asking is “When did you realize that your perceptions and memories were not a perfect representation of reality?” ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/17 "2009-07-03T00:33:45Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I’m not quite trolling, but I _am_ being deliberately provocative to see which people have minds open enough to try and understand what I’m saying. Okay, so if we don’t want to try and understand what you’re saying, then we have closed minds? Nice try at being manipulative, bub. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/18 "2009-07-03T00:39:44Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > In fact, I think you will find that most of your memories consist of seeing yourself in the third person, a view you could not possibly have obtained through your eyeballs. No, none of them do. Nice try. ---
**Author:** ![Dusty\_Rose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@Dusty\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dusty_Rose)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/19 "2009-07-03T00:52:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > No, none of them do. Nice try. I noticed this, too, and agree with you. NONE of my memories have me in the third person. I read the rest of this thread wondering if other people do or not. ---
**Author:** ![Dusty\_Rose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@Dusty\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dusty_Rose)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738/20 "2009-07-03T00:53:36Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I know what you are talking about. What if D-O-G was really spelled C-A-T? Think about it. This cracked me up. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wgen-did-you-discover-that-reality-is-inconsistent/501738.md?page=2)