Actually, it has nothing to do with Orthodox/Conservative/Reform.
Some Jews have a custom not to eat matzoh that became wet (called gabrokts on Passover. Others (myself included) do eat gabrokts during Passover. And just when you thought it wouldn’t get more confusing, those that don’t eat gabrokts will do so on the last day of Passover (outside of Israel).
Zev Steinhardt
So, since beer is very wet leavened bread it is not kosher for Passover? And why is it that wine, fermented by yeast just like Wonder Bread, is not only okay for Passover but is an integral part of it?
And do you guys mind if I snicker at the legalistic contortions some people go through to justify eating certain foods during Passover? I’m not laughing AT you, I’m laughing WITH you; as a Cradle Catholic I come from a long tradition of it, too. Take the No Meat on Friday rule, which still exists during Lent, the period before Easter. The idea is to fast. It is supposed to be denying yourself the pleasure of some good meals. Eating lobster is not denial; you are NOT ‘mortifying the flesh’ when you eat the Surf without the Turf.
By Reform, I meant that Reform Jews are waaaaay less likely to keep Kosher at all than Orthodox or even Conservative Jews, much less keep Kosher to the level of strictness that it would even cross their minds to question whether matzo crumbs were falling onto their plates. My grandmother was raised Orthodox, and although she has recounted plenty of stories about what that meant in practical daily terms in her mother’s very Old World, Yiddish-speaking household, none of them had to do with matzo crumbs. But now you have me curious; maybe I’ll ask her.
But hey, as long as you’re here, could I talk you into explaining the whole “inside Israel/outside of Israel” distinction? I seem to recall there are some other items of religious observance that distinguish whether you’re in Israel or not, but they aren’t springing to mind. Please enlighten one of the not terribly observant, but curious anyway, Teeming Millions.
Beer, IIRC (I’m not a beer drinker, so I may be wrong on this) is made from fermented grains, is it not?
Wine is fermented by yeast?!
In any event, it’s not the yeast that’s forbidden, it’s the grain that is fermented by it. Anything made of wheat, rye, spelt, oats or barley can become chametz. Grapes cannot. So, Wonder Bread would be out, but wine is OK.
I’m not sure what “legalistic conditions” you’re referring to. If it’s chametz it’s forbidden, period. There’s no legalistic conditions around it.
Zev Steinhardt
But that would mean no matzoh brie! For the nonJews, or those who use a different name for the stuff, matzoh brie is basically French toast made with matzoh. The matzoh must be soaked in water until soft, before it is dunked in egg and fried.
Re Wine
Actually, I’m curious about that myself.
SemiHijack
Anybody know where I can get a copy of the fifth son? It’s an addition to the four sons segment commemorating the Holocaust.
There are a number of religious observances that differ if one is in Israel or in the Diaspora. I’m assuming, however, from the fact that you’re responding to my comment that you are interested in the Passover aspects of it.
If you check out any copy of the Torah, you will see that Passover is a seven day holiday. However, it is actually observed for eight days outside of Israel, while only seven in Israel. The reason for this is rather complicated, but I’ll try to break it down for you.
The Jewish calendar is a luni-solar one. IOW, the months follow the lunar calendar. However, since the lunar year is shorter than the solar year by about 11 days, an extra month is added seven out of every nineteen years to bring it back into (approximate) sync with the solar year.
The lunar month is (approximately) 29 1/2 days long. As a result, the new moon could occur on one of two days, the 30th day following the last new moon or the 31st.
In the days of the Temple, there was no set calendar. The start of the month would be proclaimed when witnesses would go to Jerusalem to testify in court that they saw the new moon. When the testimony was accepted, the court would proclaim a new month and send out messengers to let the people in the surrounding countryside know which day was the new month.
Passover is on the 15th day of the month of Nissan. If messengers could reach a community in time, they would know which day was the first of the month and therefore know which day to observe as the first day of Passover. If, however, you lived outside of that sphere, then you had a problem. Which day was the first of the month, and which day, therefore, was the 15th (and Passover)? You couldn’t tell. As a result, the people in communities outside of Israel began observing an extra day out of doubt. And even though we no longer have this doubt today (as we have a set calendar) the custom has become so universal that it is kept to this very day. That’s why there are eight days outside of Israel and only seven days in Israel.
As for gabrokts there is a reason why people who don’t normally eat it will do so on the last day of Passover (outside of Israel). The reason is because of a concept called a sfek sfeika (a double doubt).
Normally, when one has a doubt about a Biblical prohibition, one must act stringently. That means that if you find a piece of meat and don’t know if it’s kosher or not, you must act stringently and assume that it is non-kosher and not eat it. (Note: There are exceptions to this, depending on the locale where found, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion). However, for a double doubt, you don’t have to be stringent.
The reason why some people don’t eat gabrokts on Passover is because there is a possibility that some uncooked portion of the matzoh may begin rising and become chametz. That’s one doubt. However, the status of the eighth day of Passover itself is (was) a matter of a doubt as well (because they weren’t sure which day was the first of the month). As a result, you now had a double doubt: (1) maybe the uncooked flour will rise and (2) maybe the day is not actually Passover. As such, those in the Diaspora who don’t normally eat gabrokts will do so on the eighth day of Passover.
Zev Steinhardt
So I’m taking that as a “no.” But what if the beer is made of rice? Do you consider rice chametz?
What I said was “legaistic contortions.” The same contortions made by Eva’s cited Rabbi Rosen, who says “that the ban on kitniyos (legumes) is to prevent any possible public confusion between their flour and that which comes from grains. See, flour is the medium on which yeast acts, so it is actually the idea of flour, broadly conceived, that is anathema to Jews.” I mean, if it were all cut and dried there would have not been much for the Torah scholars of the last two or three thousand years to talk about. Instead, these were the guys who invented “that depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is” thousands of years before Bill Clinton.
Of course, I am not saying the Jews have a monopoly on interpreting the Law. We’ve had our share and they were both funnier and weirder, from St Hugh of Grenoble, who turned a flock of chickens into turtles (considered fish in the Middle Ages) so his monks could have something good to eat on Friday, to George Carlin’s wiseass schoolboys asking the priest if they didn’t have to go to church on Sunday if they crossed the International Date Line and missed Sunday entirely. But one wants to do what’s right and an awful lot of it is in the interpretation.
Rice != “chametz”.
“Chametz”=“wheat, barley, spelt, rye, and oat when mixed with liquid and left to sit for 18 or more mintues” The end. This is the actual rule and there’s no legalistic wiggle room (except for the confusion on my part as to whether those grains as such are verboten or whether it’s “those grains + liquid” that’s forbidden.-Zev: can you help clarify?)
“kitniyos”=“Other stuff that the Torah doesn’t explicity forbid, but reasonably it would have, had the grains been known at the time”. But this is more a tradition (a really, really strong tradition–a-la “no meat on Friday”, I think) than an actual commandment of God. It comes from people thinking much the same way you did with your “Lobster on a Friday” example. What’s weird is that a grain called “quinona” (which, IMO, tastes terrible) is still allowed under “kitniyos” because it wasn’t discovered until after the “kitniyos” rules were codified.
Rice Beer is ok regarding “chamez” and not ok for “kitniyos”
Fruit-based alcohol is fine in any case because grapes or peaches or elderberries are neither “chamez” or “kitniyos”. However, Rice Wine may or many not be ok depending on whether one follows “kitniyos”. In any case um…which booze is made out of wheat? Whiskey? (Whiskey is wheat and yeast, right?) is absolutely not OK.
Fenris
All fermentation into alcohol is done by yeast. It’s the exact same process as in bread, just that in bread the objective is to keep the CO[sub]2[/sub] rather than the alcohol. Yeast is any of a thousand different species of fungus, but usually Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
The grain doesn’t actually ferment. Yeast acts on sugars, so the starch in the grain has to first break down. If you put enough fat or salt in with the flour, the flour wouldn’t ferment no matter how long it sat out.
This religion is certainly more interesting than the Presbyterian thing I grew up with, though I think I’d probably still end up as an infidel.
See? That’s the legalistic contortions I was talking about. The main difference between the Jewish scholars and the Catholic laity is that the Catholics are trying to wriggle out of doing something unpleasant while the Jews are contorting to make things worse
“No Fritos! If Moses had heard of maize that would’ve been out, too.” Though the argument could be made that God knew about maize when he dictated the restrictions but …
I was rummaging through Leviticus trying to find the specifics on this and all I could find was the phrase “unleavened bread.” Bread, we see, is a pretty broad term but it is some stretch to include whiskey as bread. Especially since it is not made of Rabbi Rosen’s flour but of whole grain. But I couldn’t dig more because book was making me hungry with those recipes for sacrifices. “Take a nice brisket, roll it in salted flour, and roast it with a bit of olive oil.” But then the guys in the Temple take it all and don’t share with schlubs like me.
When performing legalistic contortions with Jewish law, it’s absolutely vital to start with the original language.
Don’t think that didn’t cross my mind! But, as I do not speak Hebrew, Aramaic, OR Greek and my current linguistic efforts are to pick up some Egyptian heiroglyphics I used the oldest and most linguistically archaic thing available to me–the King James Version. 
Okay, wise guy ;), what are the SPECIFIC HEBREW words used? And the closest translation into a language we have in common? And who translated it? And on what do you base your confidence that his translation is accurate both linguistically and as to the writer’s intent? And do you follow a literal translation (chametz) or a philosophical adaptation disguised as a translation (kitniyos)?
Dropzone I know very little Hebrew. When I want to interpret the halacha, I ask some of the many rabbis here in Philly, consult some reputable websites, and ask Zev and Chaim. I do my best to find out the person’s qualifications, and whether or not they’re pushing an agenda. I am highly suspicious of anybody who gives only one translation and meaning. Fortunately, this almost never happens. Generally, you get several translations and the evidence for each.
Since each torah must not add or omit so much as a single stroke, I don’t worry about translation errors or revisions.
I vary my interpretation based on what makes sense. IMHO the prohibition on boiling a kid goat in the milk of its mother commands the seperation of meat and dairy products. Not putting a stumbling block before the widow, the blind man, or the orphan, on the other hand (again IMHO)is figurative. Yes, you shouldn’t go around tripping these people but the actual command is much broader-don’t use your power to be cruel the powerless, remember that even if you escape earthly consequences G-d sees your misdeeds, etc.
Whether only baked goods raised by yeast are forbidden, or if the prohibition covers all leavening agents (baking soda etc) is beyond my abilities and knowledge to interpret. But, clearly the intent is to give up many foods, and replace some foods with inferior substitutes, in order to remember that we were slaves in Egypt. Egg kichel are leavened. I trust the rabbis that certify them kosher to have a vaild argument that whatever chemical leaving agent is used is acceptable. More, I can only ever find the things around passover. It’s impossible for me to eat them and not be reminded of passover and what it means.
Part of me asks “Then how do you know what to do?” while the other part sees that as proper–there can be multiple translations and interpretations of those translations. And believe me when I say how much I appreciate what you and the others have taught me in this thread. On the other hand, I don’t agree with your non-literal interpretation of the meat/milk rule, though I agree that your other examples are figurative.
Absolute agreement!
Weeeeeeel, this sounds to me like one of those (what’s a better, less offensive word than “legalistic contortion?”) adaptations of Scripture to make a traditional food acceptable when, under a strict interpretation, it might not be. Like eating turtles on Friday.
Great, now you have just ruined those yummy Manishewitz jelly fruit slices for me! No longer can I enjoy them as a favorite candy. Now they are reminders of the time some of my ancestors spent in bondage. Big thanks, Doc.
Hmmmm, what time is local sunset in Philly? Have I “won” for today? 
Crap! He still has half an hour to wipe me all over the mat!
I wasn’t aware we were competing. I thought that we were just having a discussion. I finished the seder a few minutes ago, wanted to look up something on the net, and foolishly checked my e-mail.
BTW- Apparently the prophet Elijah lives upstairs in my building. I had just opened the door from my apartment to the hallway. I was about to open the door to the parking lot, when somebody came in. I was too stunned to move, and the staircase to the second floor blocked my view. But it seems when he’s not in his flaming chariot, Elijah spends his time in apartment in north east Philly.
I can imagine the ads for your building.
Okay, while we are continuing this totally un-Pittish thread I’ve been wondering something else. I have been told that animal sacrifice was stopped because, with the Temple in Jerusalem destroyed, there was no place to do it. Were a miracle to occur and the Temple restored would sacrifices start up again? That seems to be what those guys in Israel are planning to do with the red calf they found. http://middleeastinfo.org/article475.html
Dropzone I think there was a thread just on that subject. But, I’m having problems finding it. The answer is, of course. If we rebuild the Temple, we do the same things there that our ancestors did.
BTW- Those apartment buildings which cater to observant Jews, use more electrity on the sabbath. Since the Jewish tenants can’t turn on an elctric light, the hall lights go on early so that they can use the light to read by. Since they can’t push the elevator buttons, the elevators are set to stop at every floor.
Can I just say that although I have lived in a number of different cultures, East and West, I have never lived anywhere where there was a great Jewish influence. I therefore find all the threads like this very interesting. Whilst I can understand eating special foods on special occasions to remind you of past events, and having special ways of preparing those foods, the idea of not eating some foods and having a very strict diet, to do essentially the same thing, leaves me totally bewildered. Diets that are so strict that you have to have “experts” tell you whether foods are okay to eat or not (but even they don’t always agree) is just plain wierd to me.
MelC
It’s not just us Jews. The Islamic laws about food are quite strict.
We both pale in comparison to some sects of Jainism. They may eat no food which requires killing. No leavened bread or alcohol, as yeast is killed in the making of these. Certain fruits and vegetables are forbidden. Others can’t be picked. But may be taken after they fall from the tree.
Oh? It’s okay to let automation do your work for you as long as you don’t push the buttons? I could go off on another tangent about folks bending the Law to suit them but…
Quick question: Doorknobs and locks on the Sabbath–okay or not? I assume they are because of the overriding safety issues but does the Law recognize any issue as overriding?
Perhaps a slower question: If automatic elevators are okay would it be acceptable to have your lights automated via something like X10? As you are not a rabbi (are you?) is there a good place to get answers to my questions answered besides here? I find this especially interesting because my company does automation and it would be great to have a more complete idea of some potential customers’ special needs and how I can address them.