# What a bunch of dicks! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452 "2006-07-28T20:27:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/61 "2006-07-31T17:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] That depends on who you ask. The workers in other countries who take those low wage jobs are forced to work many, many hours just to keep up half the standard of living we have here. [/QUOTE] If they are being “forced” to work, then that is a failure of government. However, I think that many of the people you claim are being “forced” to work have chosen what is, for them, a better life than stoop labor farm work in rice paddies (or the like). In China, for instance, people have to be “forced” not to move to the cities to take these jobs. I think you are making the mistaken assumption that every country, regardless of its education level or infrastructure, should be able to support a US type labor force. That simply isn’t the case. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/62 "2006-07-31T17:16:43Z")
Again, it depends on who you ask. Many people who are in better positions and simply cannot fathom poverty say “they can always go somewhere else.” Well, yes, they can, but other places in the same area offer the same working conditions and the same wages. “Well, why don’t they just move?” With what? In case you hadn’t noticed, it takes money to move. And to where? Is ther anywhere you know of that will pay you to move to a higher standard of living when you don’t have the skills or even the language to do so? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/63 "2006-07-31T17:19:19Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If they are being “forced” to work, then that is a failure of government. However, I think that many of the people you claim are being “forced” to work have chosen what is, for them, a better life than stoop labor farm work in rice paddies (or the like). In China, for instance, people have to be “forced” not to move to the cities to take these jobs. I think you are making the mistaken assumption that every country, regardless of its education level or infrastructure, should be able to support a US type labor force. That simply isn’t the case. [/QUOTE] I’m not saying they should, **John**. I’m pointing out that US businesses are taking advantage of those labor laws in order to maintain their bottom line. As for those people “choosing” that life; what alternatives do they have? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/64 "2006-07-31T17:26:44Z")
Literally, no. But it’s the best they can do. It’s that, something worse or roughly equivalent, or nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/65 "2006-07-31T17:44:31Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] I’m not saying they should, **John**. I’m pointing out that US businesses are taking advantage of those labor laws in order to maintain their bottom line. [/quote] Of course they are. Why shouldn’t they? > [@](#): > > As for those people “choosing” that life; what alternatives do they have? It’s unfortunate that everyone on earth cannot choose to be an artist living in a loft in SoHo. Would you rather that they had no other choice than to stay on the farm? It’s an ufotrunate fact of life that a society can’t go from agrarian to industrial with the sweep of a magic wand-- especially a society with 1.2B people. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/66 "2006-07-31T17:51:26Z")
Why shouldn’t they? Well, call me silly, but I think it’s a little hypocritical to say my company is unethical by trying to force those working conditions on me, but that it’s perfectly acceptable for them to do so to someone else. But then, it’s an unfortunate fact of life that people only bemoan business ethics as and if they’re affected by them. Ethics are ethics. If it isn’t okay for a US business to do something here, it should not be ok for them to do the same thing elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/67 "2006-07-31T18:01:32Z")
**To everyone who is against raising the minimum wage:** Please, please rent the first season disc of Morgan Spurlock’s [30 Days](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EXDRZ8/sr=1-1/qid=1154368360/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5102232-3280158?ie=UTF8&s=dvd). The first episode features him and his fiancee trying to get by for a month on minimum wage. I certainly don’t want legislation that grinds businesses into the ground or wreck the economy, but minimum wage at it’s current rate is a sad joke. As a side note, my boss — the best manager I’ve EVER had — is leaving the company to go back to school at Georgetown for public policy. One of his major areas of emphasis is minimum wage. Good luck, Paul! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/68 "2006-07-31T18:02:37Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] Why shouldn’t they? Well, call me silly, but I think it’s a little hypocritical to say my company is unethical by trying to force those working conditions on me, but that it’s perfectly acceptable for them to do so to someone else. But then, it’s an unfortunate fact of life that people only bemoan business ethics as and if they’re affected by them. Ethics are ethics. If it isn’t okay for a US business to do something here, it should not be ok for them to do the same thing elsewhere. [/QUOTE] Well, we need to get a lot more specific. This thread is about the US MW. If you want to argue that no company should set up shop in China unless they pay their workers the US MW, then I’ll say you simply don’t understand economics. If you say no company should go over to China and rape the girls they employ, then I’m with you. Or, if any company breaks either the laws of the US or the laws of their host country, then I say prosecute away! But you made some broad claims about workers being “forced” to work. Like I said, if we’re talking abou China, then that’s patently false. The government has it’s hands full preventing more people from coming to the cities to take those jobs. You just can’t create something from nothing. China 20 years ago basically had nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/69 "2006-07-31T18:15:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, we need to get a lot more specific. This thread is about the US MW. If you want to argue that no company should set up shop in China unless they pay their workers the US MW, then I’ll say you simply don’t understand economics. If you say no company should go over to China and rape the girls they employ, then I’m with you. Or, if any company breaks either the laws of the US or the laws of their host country, then I say prosecute away! [/quote] I’m saying that if a company is based in the U.S., it should apply the same business ethics in its overseas divisions as it does here WRT child labor, hours worked, safety, etc. As for the minimum wage, certainly their salaries should be competitive with the local market and consistent with the local economy. They’re supposed to be competing while boosting the economy, yes? > [@](#): > > But you made some broad claims about workers being “forced” to work. Like I said, if we’re talking abou China, then that’s patently false. The government has it’s hands full preventing more people from coming to the cities to take those jobs. You just can’t create something from nothing. China 20 years ago basically had nothing. China’s one example, India is another. Argentina, Peru, take your pick. By forced, I mean “having no other viable alternative than to take what is readily available, as all options are basically the same.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/70 "2006-07-31T18:27:02Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] They’re supposed to be competing while boosting the economy, yes? [/QUOTE] Well…no. They aren’t supposed to be boosting the local economy…its not their job to do so. They are businesses after all. [QUOTE=Maureen] China’s one example, India is another. Argentina, Peru, take your pick. By forced, I mean “having no other viable alternative than to take what is readily available, as all options are basically the same.” [/QUOTE] As John has pointed out repeatedly they could stay on the farm…that IS a viable alternative after all. They CHOOSE not too. I think the problem here is you are attempting to apply US (or your own) standards across the board. Not everyone and certainly not every country has the same standards for what is or is not an acceptable job or an acceptable wage. Take your illegal immigrants example from up thread. Why do you suppose those immigrants CHOOSE to flock to the US for what you consider substandard wages and work environment? The fact that they do, shows that there is a labor market at the bottom end that is being cut off here in the US due to MW. By doing away with those laws and allowing the market to set the price of labor you give people who may not have your same standards for what is or is not acceptable a choice. Really, I don’t see why people think that if the MW laws were striken from the books it would be such a disaster, or that businesses would suddenly drop their wages to the rock bottom. They STILL have to compete for labor, and part of that competition is to make the job viable. The actual result would probably be in the temp services jobs (check out clerks and such mostly) where teen agers would go from making the current MW to something a bit less. I think the change would essentially be unnoticable to most people…as most people don’t MAKE minimum wage NOW. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/71 "2006-07-31T18:32:11Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] I’m saying that if a company is based in the U.S., it should apply the same business ethics in its overseas divisions as it does here WRT child labor, hours worked, safety, etc. [/quote] Why? US labor standards are not some objectively determined criteria. They reflect certain trade-offs that our society has determined to make. Not all societies make the same determination. > [@](#): > > China’s one example, India is another. Argentina, Peru, take your pick. By forced, I mean “having no other viable alternative than to take what is readily available, as all options are basically the same.” But where do these other “choices” come from? You seem to ignore the fact that they often simply don’t exist. I remember reading a NYT Sunday magazine about this very subject that subject. I think it was Thailand (although it might have been some other S.E. Asian country) which decide to crack down on child labor. It rid all the factories of the children working there. Unfortunately, the children didn’t go to school-- many of them ended up being forced into prostitution by their parents. Now, I’m not arguing in favor of child labor, and most countries do have child labor laws. But there is no reason that every country has to have the same child labor laws as the US. Or the same 40 hour work week. So what if another country decides that 50 hours is an appropriate maximum work week? Who the hell are you to tell them otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/72 "2006-07-31T18:55:53Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] Are they being forced to work under these conditions at gunpoint? [/QUOTE] If by “gunpoint”, I could say that it’s either work in this conditions or starve, live on the streets, well, yes. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/73 "2006-07-31T18:58:10Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] I’m sort of late to the discussion, but there are several points about the pro-MW argument that I simply cannot grok. 1. Minimum wage workers are too stupid to learn new skills. “A quick trip to Skills 'R Us” is exactly the reason why those of us who make more than $5/hr do. Why is the idea of learning new skills so reprehensible? Yes, it’s a financial burden and requires discipline, but surely policies should be centred around helping people learn new skills? How would the minimum wage help this? [/QUOTE] Gee, I don’t know, maybe they could afford college, to learn skills? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/74 "2006-07-31T19:03:27Z")
[QUOTE=appleciders] Gee, I don’t know, maybe they could afford college, to learn skills? [/QUOTE] 98% of the workers in the US who earn \> MW have only a high school education. Anyone with half the motivation of a snail can get better than a MW job. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/75 "2006-07-31T19:05:00Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] 98% of the workers in the US who earn \> MW have only a high school education. Anyone with half the motivation of a snail can get better than a MW job. [/QUOTE] Oops-- that’s not right. 98% of the workers in the US with only a HS education make \> MW. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/76 "2006-07-31T19:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So what if another country decides that 50 hours is an appropriate maximum work week? Who the hell are you to tell them otherwise? [/QUOTE] The consumer. The one voting with my wallet not to use their goods and services. And for the most part, I do try to be an aware consumer although it’s becoming more and more difficult to not use services provided by these huge corporations which are somehow managing to completely undermine anti-trust laws _coughCOMCASTcough_ ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/77 "2006-07-31T19:12:24Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Oops-- that’s not right. 98% of the workers in the US with only a HS education make \> MW. [/QUOTE] Is that from the USDL site on the first page? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/78 "2006-07-31T20:33:21Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Oops-- that’s not right. 98% of the workers in the US with only a HS education make \> MW. [/QUOTE] Do you have stats for workers with less than a high school education? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/79 "2006-07-31T21:56:49Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] Is that from the USDL site on the first page? [/QUOTE] Yes, it was from the cite I gave to **elucidator**. Keep in mind that that doesn’t mean 98% of HS grads never worked for MW at some time in their lives, just that at this time, in all age groups, 98% earn more than MW. **Enginerd** : Go that that cite and I think it has the info you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452/80 "2006-07-31T23:10:57Z")
Point of clarification: That 98% number is a bit misleading, since it includes people making \> the Federal MW, but who may still be making the MW in the state they live in. But I suspect the other statistics (ie, that 25% of MW earners are teenagers) probably holds true for state MW, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-bunch-of-dicks/366452.md?page=3)