# What a good idea! Let's have Lockheed fucking Martin conduct the Canadian census! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666 "2003-10-10T13:28:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/61 "2003-10-12T19:34:20Z")
Well, you are, on an ethnic level, but I’m under the impression that **Matt** ’s entirely of British Isles descent. -Governor Quinn, who’s at least 5% French, and could be 25% French-Canadian (complicated story) (PS- To actually address the OP, I find it peculiar that the Canadian government would have a foreign-based company conduct their census, regardless of what the company sells) ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/62 "2003-10-12T20:38:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*Regarding border security, America might want to clean its own house first, given that the 9/11 hijackers were all here on valid visas, according to [this site](http://www.terrorismanswers.org/security/borders_print.html). Admittedly, three of the visas had expired, but the fact remains that the visas were issued by US agencies in the first place. And all that military spending that you encourage wasn’t much use against 19 guys with box-cutters, was it? > > You might also want to tell the morons who persist in devoting so much energy to the “war on drugs” and on stopping some Mexicans crossing the Rio Grande that terrorists present a greater danger to the security of the United States than a bit of dope or a few more agricultural laborers. From the same site:Canadian security forces share their intelligence with American security forces, and Canadians have been instrumental in foiling plots to carry out terrorist against aginst the US. But it’s hardly the Canadians’ fault if US border agencies have generally been more interested in stopping the weed and the “wetbacks” than in stopping terrorism. > > Furthermore, on the issue of increased defence spending, has it occurred to you that high US military spending, combined with an activist foreign policy, might be one of the things that encourages terrorist groups to target the US? After all, the Canadians believe that there are 50 terrorist organizations with cells in Canada, and yet those cells focus their anger on the US, not on Canada where they could conceivably carry out attacks much more easily. Maybe Canada’s reluctance to turn into a belligerent military power reflects a pragmatic desire to avoid terrorist attacks. \*\* What precisely does the above have to do with the op? Yes America needs to do a better job policing it’s borders. Yes, America needs to focus more of it’s military dollars on ways to fight asymetrical warfare. Yes, America needs to clean house in INS and immigration to keep the bad guys out (and do so in a rational way). Yes, America’s military expenditures (and size and wealth and influence) all serve to make it the biggest target in the world. What pray tell does any of this have to do with Canada outsourcing it’s census to an American company and Candians feeling paranoid about it’s ramifications? I’m not asking Canada to turn into a ‘belligerent military power’, I’m asking them to cough up the dough to have an AVERAGE sized military and police their borders. If they did this they might HAVE an indigenous industry to support instead of having to outsource to a capable American firm. In any case, whatever they do or don’t I’m asking them to stop whining about big bad America… it’s not like we demanded to do their friggin census with nefarious purposes in mind, THEY asked to save a buck. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/63 "2003-10-12T20:54:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lokij \* > \*\*What precisely does the above have to do with the op? Yes America needs to do a better job policing it’s borders. Yes, America needs to focus more of it’s military dollars on ways to fight asymetrical warfare. Yes, America needs to clean house in INS and immigration to keep the bad guys out (and do so in a rational way). Yes, America’s military expenditures (and size and wealth and influence) all serve to make it the biggest target in the world. What pray tell does any of this have to do with Canada outsourcing it’s census to an American company and Candians feeling paranoid about it’s ramifications? I’m not asking Canada to turn into a ‘belligerent military power’, I’m asking them to cough up the dough to have an AVERAGE sized military and police their borders. If they did this they might HAVE an indigenous industry to support instead of having to outsource to a capable American firm. In any case, whatever they do or don’t I’m asking them to stop whining about big bad America… it’s not like we demanded to do their friggin census with nefarious purposes in mind, THEY asked to save a buck. \*\* You’re right; my post had very little to do with the OP. In fact, it has almost exactly as little to do with the OP as your post, to which it was a response. Your observations about the military and security had zip, nada, nothing to do with the reasons for the census outsourcing. In fact, the only part of your post relevant to the OP was your comment was the sentence directly related to outsourcing. The rest was gratuitous crapola. Also, the main thrust of the criticism in this post has not been at “America” in general; it has been aimed specifically at a particular company and the military system of which it is a part. Also implicit in the OP, and in some of the other Canadian responses, is criticism of their own government for handing off the census to a private, American-owned company. In general, the thread has not been the gratuitous America-bashing that you seem so desperate to see. I guess the fact that you choose to identify “America” with military contractors is one indication of the sort of attitude that the Canadians might be worried about. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/64 "2003-10-13T01:36:58Z")
Well, you Canadians still look as if you can take Lockheed-Martin in a fair fight, if the economy of Canada is compared against Lockheed. Canada rates as number 9 on the list of largest global economies, while Lockheed-Martin comes in at a paltry 143 on the corporate list. (General Motors, #1 on the corporate list, looks like an even match for Dennmark for the #23 slot of largest economies.) [http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=377](http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=377) > **[Top 200: The Rise of Corporate Global Power - Institute for Policy Studies](https://ips-dc.org/top_200_the_rise_of_corporate_global_power/)** > > As citizen movements the world over launch activities to counter aspects of economic globalization, the growing power of private corporations is becoming a central issue. Of course, it might not be a fair fight. Ahem. Welcome to the People’s Democratic Republic of American-Affiliated Canada, Brought to You by Lockheed-Martin. ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/65 "2003-10-13T01:45:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*You’re right; my post had very little to do with the OP. In fact, it has almost exactly as little to do with the OP as your post, to which it was a response. Your observations about the military and security had zip, nada, nothing to do with the reasons for the census outsourcing. In fact, the only part of your post relevant to the OP was your comment was the sentence directly related to outsourcing. The rest was gratuitous crapola. > > Also, the main thrust of the criticism in this post has not been at “America” in general; it has been aimed specifically at a particular company and the military system of which it is a part. Also implicit in the OP, and in some of the other Canadian responses, is criticism of their own government for handing off the census to a private, American-owned company. In general, the thread has not been the gratuitous America-bashing that you seem so desperate to see. I guess the fact that you choose to identify “America” with military contractors is one indication of the sort of attitude that the Canadians might be worried about. \*\* My response was to the post which stated “I. Do. Not. Trust. The. U.S. Government. And. Or. Military. Complex” and ended “Why is that so hard for some of you to understand?”. That post certainly didn’t limit itself to the Lockheed Martin corporation and never mentioned the Canadian government at all. Let’s see, here are a couple other statements sprinkled throughout this thread that lead me to believe there was a bit of America bashing taking place here. “Considering this and the present climate in Washington it may not be a stretch to suspect census data is of interest to DC and may eventually find its way south of the border.” “I would say it’s the Americanness, sorry, and I’m with matt on this one.” It is not _I_ that is not drawing the distinction between Lockheed Martin and the US government, it is Canadians and others who seem to think our government will of course help itself to any information gathered by this private company regardless of the ethics and laws involved. As for Lockheed Martin and the ‘military system they represent’, what exactly would that be? The capitalist system? You know the one where you have a person wanting a service performed (such as a census) and you have company A. with a division that bids cheaply to accomplish said service? OH! You must mean the diabolical “Military Industrial Complex” that had JFK shot and kicks puppies for fun, answering as they do to the regime du jour of the Cheney Oilocracy (I can never keep these shadowy pseudo governments straight). Look, all I say is that if your worried just because this happens to be an American company, get over it. Either increase your military spending to the point where you have indigenous companies similar to a Lockheed Martin to use and pay for your own census or continue your close security relationship with our country and benefit by using experienced American firms and products on the cheap. Don’t pinch pennies, utilize American companies then make US out to be the bad guys who can’t be trusted. If the comments had been limited to, “I prefer a Canadian company or governmental agency conduct our own census” “Buy Canadian” I probably would have agreed with the sentiment and never posted. It was the “I don’t trust America, It’s it’s americaness, call me paranoid” statements that got me. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/66 "2003-10-13T01:58:21Z")
I don’t think not wanting a big-ass American company compiling very delicate information on individual citizens of another, **sovereign** country - one that happened to put its foot down in not supporting a pre-fab war, and one that won’t back down on its commitment to legalizing queer marriage just because the “sleeping elephant” down south doesn’t like it - is paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![lostronin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a4c791/32.png) [@lostronin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lostronin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/67 "2003-10-13T02:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lokij \* > \*\* Let’s see, here are a couple other statements sprinkled throughout this thread that lead me to believe there was a bit of America bashing taking place here. > > “Considering this and the present climate in Washington it may not be a stretch to suspect census data is of interest to DC and may eventually find its way south of the border.” > > \*\* Hold on there **lokij** I wasn’t “America bashing” at all, but rather, just tossing in a randon thought on what may be on the minds of some. I can see where you may have thought so but that was not my intention. Quite frankly, if there’s bad guys residing north of the border planning death and destruction and LM somehow sneaks said evidence out, and if it saved lives, I’m all for it! Hell it would probably save a canadian or two should a WTC like target be on the bad guys list. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/68 "2003-10-13T03:14:20Z")
I’m sure that if the boot was on the other foot – that is, if a CANADIAN company were to collect information about the names, addresses, racial background, religion, occupation and income of every AMERICAN citizen – then all the US posters to this thread would be remain equally blase. You guys seem perfectly okay with your own dearly trusted government collecting information about your lives, so you should be thrilled by the involvement of a foreign-owned company. Right? ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/69 "2003-10-13T04:34:10Z")
I think part of the problem with the original post is something that is very common in Canada. Canadiens seem to have a very high opinion of themselves and are very paranoid about being seen as different and “against” the US. In reality, no one in the US really cares who is in Canada, whether or not you’ve legalized gay marriage, or basically anything about your country. Not that most of you aren’t nice folks, I’m sure you are, but who cares? Legalize all the gay marriages you want, who cares. Yes, what Lockheed Martin will do with the information is obvious. First it will cold call you asking if you want to buy F-15s. Then, when that doesn’t work, it will invade your country and kidnap you and use you as slave labor in its super secret (known only by Cheney and Bush) laboratories building the next generation of ultra-lethal bombers that the military industrial complex has created. Isn’t it obvious? ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/70 "2003-10-13T05:08:48Z")
If a member of this evil American military-defence complex (albiet, a uniformed member) can jump in here… I don’t see what the big fuss is about. Lockheed-Martin, while primarily dealing with military arms (specifically air and space vehicles and weapons delivery systems) has also done work in computer technology, communications, deep sea research (an offshoot of some of their contracting for the USN) and assisted in the compilation of American census statistics. Someone said it before, and its probably the correct situation, LM-C probably just offered the most competative contract to the Canadian government. The Canadian division of an American company just signed a deal with the Canadian government. Don’t you think that your parlamentarians (please correct me if that’s the wrong term) would have dictated the allowable use of these stats in the contract? And, seeing as that ‘foreign’ contract has to be approved by the US State department, the USA will never get the specifics on it anyway. We’ll read the stats on the web, just like everyone else. I mean, sheesh, its not like it’s the PRC’s Ministry of Information is trying to get your info. Now THAT would be scary. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/71 "2003-10-13T05:15:41Z")
But it’s military and evil and shit. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/72 "2003-10-13T05:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bri1600bv \* > \*\* > In reality, no one in the US really cares who is in Canada, whether or not you’ve legalized gay marriage, or basically anything about your country. Not that most of you aren’t nice folks, I’m sure you are, but who cares? Legalize all the gay marriages you want, who cares. \*\* Wow. It’s taking longer than we thought. So many of you who have posted are just so incredibly off-base … you seem to have no idea why this kind of thing would concern Canadian citizens. Christ on a crouton. You’re doing nothing to dispel the stereotype of the dense American not knowing or caring about Canada. Case in point, the above quote. And fuck, where is **matt**?? ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/73 "2003-10-13T05:25:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lostronin \* > \*\* > Quite frankly, if there’s bad guys residing north of the border planning death and destruction and LM somehow sneaks said evidence out, and if it saved lives, I’m all for it! Hell it would probably save a canadian or two should a WTC like target be on the bad guys list. \*\* Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence agencies “forgot” to sneak out the information they had prior to 9-11. And how exactly would “bad guys” be identified through the answers on a census form? Oh yeah, Muslim, Arab… brown. Whatever. Hell, let’s throw in the homos as well, because everyone knows what we can do with stiletto heels. ---
**Author:** ![lostronin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a4c791/32.png) [@lostronin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lostronin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/74 "2003-10-13T06:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scott evil \* > \*\*Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence agencies “forgot” to sneak out the information they had prior to 9-11. > > And how exactly would “bad guys” be identified through the answers on a census form? Oh yeah, Muslim, Arab… brown. Whatever. Hell, let’s throw in the homos as well, because everyone knows what we can do with stiletto heels. \*\* **scott** , I am not dismissing the concern expressed in your OP one bit. I am not even suggesting data finding it’s way south would be all-good, all-right or all-correct…but if it were to occur, and if bad guys were ID’d, and I stress, if it **saved lives** , the good would far outweigh the perceived harm. If it makes you feel any better I am suddenly concerned about Muslin Homos in Stelitto heels. Perhaps your census form needs a second look. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/75 "2003-10-13T06:41:19Z")
I didn’t write the OP. You mean my first reply to the OP? Sheesh. People still confuse me with **matt\_mcl**. Just because we’re both 'mos who live in Montreal. You can tell us apart by our dicks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/76 "2003-10-13T06:47:34Z")
It’s OK. We all know where you live anyway. Canada. ---
**Author:** ![lostronin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a4c791/32.png) [@lostronin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lostronin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/77 "2003-10-13T06:52:02Z")
oops - call me new and confused ! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/78 "2003-10-13T18:03:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scott evil \* > \*\*Yeah, we socialist faggots have _nothing_ to worry about with the U.S. government potentially having access to that information. :rolleyes: \*\* Well, I think in reality, you probably don’t. First of all, it’ll be a private company having access to the information, not the US government. Lockheed Martin has its own rules about confidential information, and wouldn’t willingly give the information to the US government. The US government’s powers to get the information from LM is going to be further reduced if the information is stored in Canada by LM-Canada Secondly, they’ll just be storing the information, at one point during the census, and not involved in census gathering. I’d imagine the data they store will be in some way encoded by Statistics Canada. Thirdly, Canada isn’t very high on the US government’s list of threats or intelligence priorities Fourthly, with the rather pourous US/Canadian border, shared language and culture, and general good relationship between the two countries, the US already has access to a lot of intelligence about Canada Fifthly, all the information collected in the census will be public in the aggragate, anyway, and the US government probably doesn’t need individual information…it doesn’t care that Joe Blow lives at 200 King Street Vancouver. However, that being said, I can understand why you’re concerned. However, I don’t think you really need to worry that much. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/79 "2003-10-13T18:29:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bri1600bv \* > **In reality, no one in the US really cares who is in Canada, whether or not you’ve legalized gay marriage, or basically anything about your country. Not that most of you aren’t nice folks, I’m sure you are, but who cares? Legalize all the gay marriages you want, who cares.** Oh yeah? [These](http://www.nogaymarriage.com/canadamarriage.asp) [people](http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz061303.asp) [seem](http://family.org/cforum/feature/a0026539.cfm) [to](http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2003/09/10/182378-ap.html) [care](http://www.gopusa.com/dougpatton/dp_0901.shtml). [Republican Rep. Marilyn Musgrave](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90935,00.html) does, too. ---
**Author:** ![scott\_evil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@scott\_evil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scott_evil)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666/80 "2003-10-13T18:37:47Z")
_{{adds **Homebrew** and SO to the wedding guest list}}_ 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-a-good-idea-lets-have-lockheed-fucking-martin-conduct-the-canadian-census/206666.md?page=5)