# What about Catholicism lent itself, specifically, to the abuse of young boys? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782 "2017-08-04T16:22:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/41 "2017-08-05T21:05:39Z")
Offenses happen in other churches also but no way does some small Baptist church wield the same power as the Catholics. For example: 1. The Catholic church has the money to buy lawyers, to pay people off, and they can influence the media. Their was a movie that brought this up. 2. That neighborhood Catholic church is connected to a much wider Catholic community which can include schools, colleges, and hospitals as well as Catholic owned businesses. A bishop who knows whats going on can oversee a very large area so a family just cannot switch to another church easily. Now in my church for example, I can switch to another church down the street and nobody at the new church will have even heard of the previous church or have any connection. 3. Along with that the deep Catholic tradition in many families. So if say you bring up abuse and a big lawsuit you have to explain to your old Catholic grandma why her senior citizen center had to close to pay for the lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/42 "2017-08-05T21:18:44Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’ve talked to some Catholics on this issue who have told me “They weren’t priest. They were homosexuals masquerading as priests.” The ones in Scotland weren’t even Scotsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/43 "2017-08-06T17:32:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You think nobody keeps track of the type of relationship between the abuser-abused? I have little doubt “coach” is on a couple of lists. I have not seen a centralized study of child abuse / molestation / pedophilia with a breakdown by the type of relationship, no. I did one google search to find this article in Slate indicating that even the number for teachers abusing are not centralized, and don’t have a common definition: > **[How Many Kids Are Sexually Abused by Their Teachers?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/02/is-sexual-abuse-in-schools-very-common.html)** > > Los Angeles police are investigating a teacher aide at Miramonte Elementary School who allegedly sent love letters to an 11-year-old student. The... So again, it is easy to capture when a central organization can be identified such as the Catholic Church, or the Boy Scouts (aided by their own tracking of claims through the years). I was active in AYSO, with a role that was focused on helping to ensure that nobody was given a coach or other such official slot without a background check. I am not aware of any central report from AYSO showing how often coaches abused the players on their teams, however. But I am 100% positive that it happened in the past, and is still happening today. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/44 "2017-08-06T22:20:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Your claim “I have little doubt “coach” is on a couple of lists.”. Can you back this up or not? I don’t have lists, but I can assure you it happens. [Jerry Sandusky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State_child_sex_abuse_scandal) [At least 20 British youth soccer coaches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_football_sexual_abuse_scandal) [Three dozen coaches from USA Swimming](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/abc-news-investigation-usa-swimming-coaches-raped-molested/story?id=10322469) [The USA Gymnastics scandal](https://thinkprogress.org/81-people-have-accused-former-usa-gymnastics-coach-of-sexual-assault-7de2c18d4186/) [Youth hockey](http://6abc.com/news/hockey-coach-accused-of-sex-abuse-in-nj-and-del/1816640/) And let’s not forget [Dennis Hastert,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Hastert#Sexual_abuse_allegations_emerge) the high school wrestling coach who went on to become Speaker of the House and managed to earn letters in two different types of scandals. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/45 "2017-08-06T23:56:01Z")
One thing that isn’t showing up in this thread is a theological conundrum that I have heard as an excuse for the behavior of the Church. If a person confesses their sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, their sins are considered forgiven by God. This is an absolute theological truth, per the teachings of the Church. The Church is big on God’s forgiveness and giving people a second chance. This is part of what leads to re-assigning priests. That sin is forgiven, they have a new life now. The Church needs to draw a line between “Forgiven by God” and “Guilty of a Crime”. A sinner may be forgiven for their sin, but that does not absolve them of the need for criminal prosecution. However, any evidence given in the Confessional cannot be used to prosecute, since if any priest opened their mouth, people would not trust the confessional any more. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/46 "2017-08-07T01:08:02Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I have not seen a centralized study of child abuse / molestation / pedophilia with a breakdown by the type of relationship, no. Well a centralized database doesn’t exist for a tonne of things but that doesn’t mean no one keeps track. If a study asks a thousand people if they were molested and who was their abuser, you’d get some numbers. The majority would be parents or other relatives but I have a hard time believing everything else would get listed under “other”. Do you think the same about teachers? i.e. they don’t show up as “another math teacher” in a list. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/47 "2017-08-07T03:26:13Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > One thing that isn’t showing up in this thread is a theological conundrum that I have heard as an excuse for the behavior of the Church. If a person confesses their sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, their sins are considered forgiven by God. This is an absolute theological truth, per the teachings of the Church. The Church is big on God’s forgiveness and giving people a second chance. This is part of what leads to re-assigning priests. That sin is forgiven, they have a new life now. The Church needs to draw a line between “Forgiven by God” and “Guilty of a Crime”. A sinner may be forgiven for their sin, but that does not absolve them of the need for criminal prosecution. However, any evidence given in the Confessional cannot be used to prosecute, since if any priest opened their mouth, people would not trust the confessional any more. I have seen this put forth as speculation, but I have not ever seen anyone in the church put it forth as a justification, (or even a rationalization). It is possible that that attitude was present up until the 1960s, but as the psychological underpinnings of abusers became more evident, such attitudes were unlikely to drive the decisions of bishops. The cases where priests were simply moved around with no one being told about their issues seem to have occurred where the local bishop (or his staff) was more concerned with bad press and scandal than with addressing the problems. It was not true in all diocese, but it certainly happened often enough, (_i.e._ too often). The aspect that does parallel your post that we did see happen was a misunderstanding of the grip that pedophilia and ephebophilia have on those with those tendencies. Rather than an attitude of “confess your sin and go and sin no more,” a number of diocese acted as though sending those priests to counseling was sufficient to prevent a recurrence. There was a certain basis for such an attitude, although it was wrong. Alcoholic priests were treated as “sinners” into the 1960s, but the creation of places such as Guest House in Wisconsin and Michigan demonstrated that alcoholism was a disease that could be treated. (Recognition was slow, with a lot of bishops continuing to refuse to recognize that situation into the 1970s, and perhaps beyond.) To the extent that the Guest House (and similar) programs were successful, however, sexual abuse began to be considered in the same way as alcoholism (and, later, drug dependency), although the incredibly poor “cure” rate for the sexual issues was not immediately understood. I do not ever recall hearing anyone in the priesthood or hierarchy say that simply confessing their sins was going to make a difference. As to those diocese in which no effort was made to stop the abuse, I can condemn the actions but I cannot understand them. Even granting the morbid fear of scandal, refusing to take action to remove a priest from the “near occasion of sin” simply makes no sense either practically or theologically. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/48 "2017-08-07T12:20:42Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > What about Catholicism lent itself, specifically, to the abuse of young boys? > > Let us take a step back. > > The Catholic Church is an institution and it has a mission to teach the faith. There is a strong moral element to that teaching. There is also a duty of care and this is described as a pastoral mission - a shepherd looking after his flock. > > In some places the institution failed and allowed priests to be ordained that did not have the strength of character to live up to their vow of celibacy. The response to was also mistaken, the bishops put the interests of the church before those of vulnerable children in their care. They covered up scandals, moved exploiters to new locations and isolated the victims. > > All desperately wrong. > > The same thing has happened in many other kinds of institutions, not just religious, that have a teaching element where the teacher is given the authority to maintain discipline over pupils. > > It has happened in sports academies, schools, hospitals, the armed services, all kinds of places. Anywhere there is a power relationship and a management that is careless in its selection of teachers and prioritises medals, certificates, reputations and other signs of institutional success over their duty of care. > > This is the scandal of our age. > > I think it weighs very heavily on religious institutions because they are supposed to teach a moral framework, yet the moral integrity of the institution was itself weak and failed to protect those in their care. > > It is important to distinguish between the higher purpose of a religious doctrine and the failure of some of an institution. We don’t always get the best people leading organisations. > > Here an emerging scandal from the UK that illustrates the point. Nothing quite as emotive as child exploitation, everyone in this one is an adult, a paramedic. Those heroes who nobly serve the public each day and get us to the emergency room when we have a crisis. In this corner of England it all seems to have gone very wrong: > > [South East Coast Ambulance Service report shows bullying culture - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40825748) > > I guess the next question is: how do you stop this from happening and how do you deal with it when it does happen? > > There are some very large institutions in many countries across the world struggling to find answers. 😕 Please forgive me **filmstar-en** , if I missed your point. But it seems to me there is a lot of blahblahblah it happens a lot all over the place lets not focus on the catholic church blahblahblah. Am I missing your point? The catholic church is a rich, educated, world wide entity that claims to know better than this, and claims a huge moral responsibly, and yet did worse than nothing - it covered it up and abetted it in continuing. This continuous waving off of the church’s responsibility is what drives people nuts. Do you see that? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/49 "2017-08-07T14:52:48Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Please forgive me **filmstar-en** , if I missed your point. But it seems to me there is a lot of blahblahblah it happens a lot all over the place lets not focus on the catholic church blahblahblah. Am I missing your point? > > The catholic church is a rich, educated, world wide entity that claims to know better than this, and claims a huge moral responsibly, and yet did worse than nothing - it covered it up and abetted it in continuing. > > This continuous waving off of the church’s responsibility is what drives people nuts. Do you see that? I support prosecuting and imprisoning bishops whenever and wherever it can be shown they obstructed justice or acted as accessories to crimes. No excuses. But it’s NOT an excuse to say that the Catholic Church was hardly unique among religions (or among major institutions). To the question “What is there about Catholicism that causes molestation,” the answer is " Nothing. In fact, it’s not clear the Catholic Church has more pedophiles per capita than the Episcopalians or the Baptists or Little League or Pop Warner football. " OBVIOUSLY the Church should be held to a higher standard than other institutions. Just don’t delude yourself that “This could never happen in OUR church because we have married clergy (there are lots of molestors with wives)” or " This could never happen in OUR progressive school, because we don’t subscribe to backward sexual doctrines. " ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/50 "2017-08-07T17:28:43Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I support prosecuting and imprisoning bishops whenever and wherever it can be shown they obstructed justice or acted as accessories to crimes. No excuses. > > But it’s NOT an excuse to say that the Catholic Church was hardly unique among religions (or among major institutions). To the question “What is there about Catholicism that causes molestation,” the answer is " Nothing. In fact, it’s not clear the Catholic Church has more pedophiles per capita than the Episcopalians or the Baptists or Little League or Pop Warner football. " > > OBVIOUSLY the Church should be held to a higher standard than other institutions. Just don’t delude yourself that “This could never happen in OUR church because we have married clergy (there are lots of molestors with wives)” or " This could never happen in OUR progressive school, because we don’t subscribe to backward sexual doctrines. " What does seem clear is that the Catholic Church has gone to extremes to protect child molesters - for years and years - and continues to do so. You say that the church should OBVIOUSLY be held to a higher standard. When is this going to start? I’d argue that it won’t start until the Church and it’s members stops saying that we aren’t any worse than any one else or making any other such excuse. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/51 "2017-08-07T17:42:22Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Please forgive me **filmstar-en** , if I missed your point. But it seems to me there is a lot of blahblahblah it happens a lot all over the place lets not focus on the catholic church blahblahblah. Am I missing your point? > > The catholic church is a rich, educated, world wide entity that claims to know better than this, and claims a huge moral responsibly, and yet did worse than nothing - it covered it up and abetted it in continuing. > > This continuous waving off of the church’s responsibility is what drives people nuts. Do you see that? I do understand what drives people nuts. However, part of this is based on a misunderstanding of how the church is organized. Despite the feelings/beliefs/whatever that are popularly held by many people, the church is not a strict top-down authority in the way that a military is. In fact, each suffragan bishop (top guy) of a diocese answers pretty much to no one. Ultimately they answer to the pope and there are policies in place that puts them under the control of various organizations in the Vatican. However, until a bishop is called out for doing wrong, (and accusations must go through a chain of evidence and protocol just as it does in a civil court), there is no hierarchy that simply allows someone above him to yank him out of his office or punish him. This means that it has not been some megalithic organization that has acted in unity to abet the abuses. Instead, there have been numerous bishops making their own decisions regarding each event–decisions for which they have not immediately been held accountable. With the far too many bishops who did sweep abuse under the carpet in the desire to avoid public scandal, the appearance has been that it has been “the church” doing it. However, it is rather more complex than that. There have always been diocese that did the correct thing. (I recall a priest who was brought up on charges in the 1970s, (which tended to precede the general commotion that erupted in the early 1980s), in which the diocese refused to interfere with the trial and sentencing for his behavior. He was a very popular priest (as many of them have been) and the parishioners spent months excoriating the diocese for not pleading for a lighter sentence, arguing that he was repentant and had expressed a desire to go to counselling to overcome his proclivities.) The response of the diocese was that he had broken the law and that he needed to face up to the punishment. I do not have numbers for how many U.S. diocese behaved correctly or were derelict in their duties, but it was never a case that “the church” was enabling this behavior. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/52 "2017-08-07T17:51:55Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > What does seem clear is that the Catholic Church has gone to extremes to protect child molesters - for years and years - and continues to do so. > > You say that the church should OBVIOUSLY be held to a higher standard. When is this going to start? I’d argue that it won’t start until the Church and it’s members stops saying that we aren’t any worse than any one else or making any other such excuse. There’s that word again- “excuse.” Where did I excuse anyone? I said I want bishops prosecuted and imprisoned. That’s not good enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/53 "2017-08-07T18:03:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Despite the feelings/beliefs/whatever that are popularly held by many people, the church is not a strict top-down authority in the way that a military is. In fact, each suffragan bishop (top guy) of a diocese answers pretty much to no one. Ultimately they answer to the pope and there are policies in place that puts them under the control of various organizations in the Vatican. However, until a bishop is called out for doing wrong, (and accusations must go through a chain of evidence and protocol just as it does in a civil court), there is no hierarchy that simply allows someone above him to yank him out of his office or punish him. And it’s matricial: the hierarchy you describe applies to secular priests, but those in orders have a second hierarchy that’s not part of the first. What the bishop knows and what the provincial knows won’t be the same. > [@tonyfop](#): > > One thing that isn’t showing up in this thread is a theological conundrum that I have heard as an excuse for the behavior of the Church. If a person confesses their sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, their sins are considered forgiven by God. Forgiveness is dependent on fulfillment of several conditions: understanding that you’ve done wrong, the desire to not do wrong again, confession and compensation for the wrong done. Where the Church failed was in the fourth part. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/54 "2017-08-07T18:17:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do understand what drives people nuts. However, part of this is based on a misunderstanding of how the church is organized. > > Despite the feelings/beliefs/whatever that are popularly held by many people, the church is not a strict top-down authority in the way that a military is. In fact, each suffragan bishop (top guy) of a diocese answers pretty much to no one. Ultimately they answer to the pope and there are policies in place that puts them under the control of various organizations in the Vatican. However, until a bishop is called out for doing wrong, (and accusations must go through a chain of evidence and protocol just as it does in a civil court), there is no hierarchy that simply allows someone above him to yank him out of his office or punish him. > > This means that it has not been some megalithic organization that has acted in unity to abet the abuses. Instead, there have been numerous bishops making their own decisions regarding each event–decisions for which they have not immediately been held accountable. With the far too many bishops who did sweep abuse under the carpet in the desire to avoid public scandal, the appearance has been that it has been “the church” doing it. However, it is rather more complex than that. There have always been diocese that did the correct thing. (I recall a priest who was brought up on charges in the 1970s, (which tended to precede the general commotion that erupted in the early 1980s), in which the diocese refused to interfere with the trial and sentencing for his behavior. He was a very popular priest (as many of them have been) and the parishioners spent months excoriating the diocese for not pleading for a lighter sentence, arguing that he was repentant and had expressed a desire to go to counselling to overcome his proclivities.) The response of the diocese was that he had broken the law and that he needed to face up to the punishment. > I do not have numbers for how many U.S. diocese behaved correctly or were derelict in their duties, but it was never a case that “the church” was enabling this behavior. I’m not an expert in the church. But at what point does lack of effort to combat this issue become enabling? Cardinals played a significant role in the reassignment of priests accused of molestation. You don’t consider Cardinals representative of “the church?” You’d think that protecting the most vulnerable, innocent members of your population - children, who be a priority, wouldn’t you? In the face of each additional scandal, I think we’ve final reached a point where people would say “enough!” But here we are, yet another scandal, more of the churches most innocent being systematically abused for years, and more “yeah, but the Pope himself didn’t approve the abuse so it’s ok.” The excuses and mitigation above is why this will go on and on, and answers the OP’s questions on why this is more likely in the Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/55 "2017-08-07T19:02:08Z")
I am thinking about the original question by looking at the Catholic church and trying to separate the features that are common to many churches and organisations and those that are specific to the Catholic church. Firstly, there are general institutional causes. Single sex environment International organisation that allows movement between jurisdictions Power structure that gives authority over minors Governance system that priortises maintaining the reputation and apparent integrity of the organisation at the expense of the individual Poor internal regulation and discipline of seniors. Wealth of the organisation and ability to defend itself in the courts. The political influence it can exert. Missionary or outreach programmes that allow offenders to relocate and obtain unsupervised access. The Catholic church ticks a lot of boxes shared by other organisations that a vulnerable to being infiltrated by abusers and also has some extra things: Vow of celibacy that causes sexual stress among priests. Doctrine of infallibility that leads to unquestioned authority and obedience within a single communion. A guilt based value system that can be exploited - grace, sin and (for errant priests) redemption. However, these weaknesses can be addressed by good governance and supervision, that this did not happen was again an institutional failure. Ireland has been rocked by some hideous scandals dating from a time when the government effectively delegated the social services and the running of many schools and hospitals to Catholic orders. The 2009 Murphy report was a devastating indictment. > **[Murphy Report](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy_Report)** > > The Murphy Report is the brief name of the report of a Commission of investigation conducted by the Irish government into the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic archdiocese of Dublin. It was released in 2009 by Judge Yvonne Murphy, only a few months after the publication of the report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse (the Ryan Report) chaired by Sean Ryan, a similar inquiry which dealt with abuses in industrial schools controlled by Roman Catholic religious institutes. > In Octobe... There are still a great many devout Catholics who take great comfort from their religion, but are disgusted by the behaviour of their church to the extent that it has lost most of its moral authority. This interview discusses how the church failed at the top level and with Rome. > **[Joe Little: Abuse almost destroyed church - priest](https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2017/0208/851235-church-clerical-abuse/)** > > The Catholic Church in Ireland has been "almost fatally destroyed" by the clerical child sexual abuse scandal, according to a former Provincial of the Jesuit Order here. There was a lack of a vigorous immune system within the church. There still is and because it is led by the Pope in the Vatican, it is his responsibility to put it in place and he is getting a lot of criticism for the delay. Meanwhile the scandals rumble on. There is another big report on child abuse in Australia due to be published this year. > **[Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Institutional_Responses_to_Child_Sexual_Abuse)** > > The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse was a royal commission announced in November 2012 and established in 2013 by the Australian government pursuant to the Royal Commissions Act 1902 to inquire into and report upon responses by institutions to instances and allegations of child sexual abuse in Australia. The establishment of the commission followed revelations of child abusers being moved from place to place instead of their abuse and crimes being reported. T... So I would answer the question by saying there was very little about Catholicism itself that allowed these things to happen. It was the institution of the Catholic Church and the way it was run that failed its members. I maybe easier to as the same question of sport and abuse by coaches. What is it about a sport that leads to abuse? Nothing! Sport is a healthy activity that is benefit for physical wellbeing. But there is clearly a lot wrong with the way some clubs are run if they do have procedures to avoid abusive coaches and deal with those that slip through the controls. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/56 "2017-08-07T20:04:52Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There’s that word again- “excuse.” Where did I excuse anyone? I said I want bishops prosecuted and imprisoned. That’s not good enough for you? I’m sure you don’t really care if I think it’s good enough or not :D. But since you asked, no it’s not. Because it’s what I’ve heard from the church for decades, and those defending the church. It’s the standard “I take full responsibility . . . but it’s not really my fault because of X, Y and Z and everybody else does it too!” So what did you write after the fact that you wanted bishops prosecuted? After your wrote “No excuses?” This: > [@astorian](#): > > But it’s NOT an excuse to say that the Catholic Church was hardly unique among religions (or among major institutions). To the question “What is there about Catholicism that causes molestation,” the answer is " Nothing. In fact, it’s not clear the Catholic Church has more pedophiles per capita than the Episcopalians or the Baptists or Little League or Pop Warner football. " > > OBVIOUSLY the Church should be held to a higher standard than other institutions. Just don’t delude yourself that “This could never happen in OUR church because we have married clergy (there are lots of molestors with wives)” or " This could never happen in OUR progressive school, because we don’t subscribe to backward sexual doctrines. " Yep. You wrote more excuses. I’ve just listened to this crap from the church for way too long (New Englander of longstanding). Excuse after excuse after excuse. Even the “the way kids dress these days” from my 90+ year old neighbor. It reminds me of a drug addict. Until the answer is “we have a serious problem that we need to fix now” without a lot of everyone else does it, or it’s not really all that prevalent, I won’t believe they are all that committed to fixing it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/57 "2017-08-07T20:40:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do not have numbers for how many U.S. diocese behaved correctly or were derelict in their duties, but it was never a case that “the church” was enabling this behavior. Here’s a question; you suggest that it would be incorrect to say that “the church” was enabling this behaviour, on the basis that (as I understand your post) we’re not talking about a direct, constant hierarchy in practice here, but essentially something along the lines of semi-independent cells organised under bishops who make day-to-day and some long-term decisions on behalf of their diocese, and who aren’t under the kind of immediate discipline that the military, as an example, is. Assuming that’s a fair reading - doesn’t that also work the other way, too? We couldn’t say “the church” does good works, either, since the decisions behind them too fall under the purview of the bishops’ mandate. If Priest Bob molests children in his care and isn’t disciplined and dealt with appropriately, and we can’t lay part of that at the feet of “the church”, then do we have to say the same about Priest Jack’s community charity drive that raises thousands? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/58 "2017-08-07T23:26:58Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I’m not an expert in the church. But at what point does lack of effort to combat this issue become enabling? Cardinals played a significant role in the reassignment of priests accused of molestation. You don’t consider Cardinals representative of “the church?” > > You’d think that protecting the most vulnerable, innocent members of your population - children, who be a priority, wouldn’t you? > > In the face of each additional scandal, I think we’ve final reached a point where people would say “enough!” But here we are, yet another scandal, more of the churches most innocent being systematically abused for years, and more “yeah, but the Pope himself didn’t approve the abuse so it’s ok.” > > The excuses and mitigation above is why this will go on and on, and answers the OP’s questions on why this is more likely in the Catholic Church. Cardinals have one job: vote for the next pope. If you are under the impression that there is an actual hierarchy of that sort, you are simply mistaken. A cardinal is just a guy who has some role in the church who has been given the additional role of voting for pope. The only people under his authority are the people in his diocese if he is a suffragan bishop or the people in his congregation (department) if he heads up one of the congregations in the Vatican. An example of the problem. In 1985 or 1986, the National Council of Catholic Bishops (United States) set forth standards that bishops/diocese were to follow when encountering an accusation of abuse and further standards to follow if the accusations were proved true. From that decision until the late 1990s, the overwhelming majority of the 196 diocese began following those rules, (if they had not already been following similar protocols). Unfortunately, in a handful of diocese, (including, shamefully, several of the largest), the bishop chose to do his own thing. So, in 2002, when the Geoghan/Law/Boston incident became nightly headlines, the bishops met, again, to come up with new, stronger rules. Those rules were then passed to the Vatican for review and approval before anyone actually had authority to charge a bishop who had violated those rules. Several similar meetings to that of 2002 have been held throughout the church and in recent years and the rules regarding abuse by priests (or anyone in authority) have been tightened up. I understand how it appears that “the church” has been doing nothing, (and there are legitimate arguments that it is still moving too slowly), but if one enters the discussion with the misconception that there is a pope-cardinal-archbishop-bishop hierarchy with everyone taking orders from “higher ranks,” then the discussion will flounder around because that is not reality. Every suffragan bishop is a nearly independent authority. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/59 "2017-08-07T23:36:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Here’s a question; you suggest that it would be incorrect to say that “the church” was enabling this behaviour, on the basis that (as I understand your post) we’re not talking about a direct, constant hierarchy in practice here, but essentially something along the lines of semi-independent cells organised under bishops who make day-to-day and some long-term decisions on behalf of their diocese, and who aren’t under the kind of immediate discipline that the military, as an example, is. > > Assuming that’s a fair reading - doesn’t that also work the other way, too? We couldn’t say “the church” does good works, either, since the decisions behind them too fall under the purview of the bishops’ mandate. If Priest Bob molests children in his care and isn’t disciplined and dealt with appropriately, and we can’t lay part of that at the feet of “the church”, then do we have to say the same about Priest Jack’s community charity drive that raises thousands? You could go that way, I suppose. There is a difference, however: the church (through encyclicals and other methods of teaching) actually promotes acts of charity, education, healing, etc. The church has never promoted sexual abuse in that fashion. And I do not want to give the impression that “the church” should not be held accountable for sexual misconduct. There is a point at which it can reasonably be charged with not acting quickly enough or forcefully enough to counter those problems. However, when one says “the church” tolerates abuse, one should at least be aware of the internal organization to understand how that situation has occurred. Claims that “the cardinals” should have stopped it are based on a misunderstanding of the actual church organization. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782/60 "2017-08-08T03:32:32Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I’m sure you don’t really care if I think it’s good enough or not :D. But since you asked, no it’s not. > > Because it’s what I’ve heard from the church for decades, and those defending the church. It’s the standard “I take full responsibility . . . but it’s not really my fault because of X, Y and Z and everybody else does it too!” > > So what did you write after the fact that you wanted bishops prosecuted? After your wrote “No excuses?” This: > > Yep. You wrote more excuses. > > I’ve just listened to this crap from the church for way too long (New Englander of longstanding). Excuse after excuse after excuse. Even the “the way kids dress these days” from my 90+ year old neighbor. It reminds me of a drug addict. Until the answer is “we have a serious problem that we need to fix now” without a lot of everyone else does it, or it’s not really all that prevalent, I won’t believe they are all that committed to fixing it. Again, you’re full of beans. I made no excuses. You’re seeing them where they don’t exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-catholicism-lent-itself-specifically-to-the-abuse-of-young-boys/792782.md?page=4)