# What about French and German people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2004, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-french-and-german-people/268355 "2004-10-09T10:02:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-french-and-german-people/268355/41 "2004-10-13T17:56:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Where on earth do you read that from my statement? As someone else explained, I wasn’t talking about his personality. His policies are the problem. There are plenty of odd characters on the diplomatic scene. This is the same warmed-over “halls of Europe” junk I heard from Bush on Friday at the debate. When I said his attitude, I didn’t mean the fact that he speaks with a Texas accent. I meant - and I said this in my second post - that he made it clear from the start he wanted to go to war whether it was really necessary or not. You said, > [@](#): > > The people in those countries didn’t want to go to war, but I think you’ve overlooked the fact that Bush **and** the attitude of his administration were a big part of the reason why. So I understood that you were talking of Bush as one factor and ‘the attitude of his administration’ as another factor. And I’m not talking about “halls of Europe”, I’m talking about people of Europe, just look at the thread title. > [@Marley23](#): > > I think the word I want here is “lip service.” Of course he said he welcomed help (when he was finally convinced to give the UN a try). Anybody can do that! When it came to actually _getting_ the help, he failed. France, Germany and others didn’t want to help him because of the attitude he gave them and because they felt he was doing something stupid. That bring again my point about elitism and ignorance that prevail in US in relation to European politics. Who do you mean when you say, “_France, Germany and others didn’t want to help…_”? Are you talking about elected officials or the people? Besides, you are contradicting your own words, “_The people in those countries didn’t want to go to war…_” > [@Marley23](#): > > Putin does run the media over there. Wrong. Check Russian internet media someday, many sites have English text (like [‘Kommersant’](http://www.kommersant.com/), for instance). It’s at least just as informative and open as US media. Except TV channels. > [@Marley23](#): > > I’d also love a cite for my irrational hatred there, smart guy. I’m pretty sure I’m not foaming at the mouth over here. I don’t understand what brought this on. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-french-and-german-people/268355/42 "2004-10-13T18:22:56Z")
> [@Spiny Norman](#): > > Re-read **The Gaspode’s** excellent post before you shoot your mouth off about “purported” allies. I have no problem with **Gaspode** ’s point. We are talking almost about the same thing, so clasp your knees and steel yourself from jerking spasms. > [@Spiny Norman](#): > > The Iraq war, in stark contrast, was a foolish stunt with a weak rationale. Lots of Europeans frankly were disgusted with the attempt to use the 9/11 attack (and their heartfelt sympathy) as political capital to launch an unrelated war. It’s not much different from what I said that French and German people were against Iraq invasion and any politician in those countries would be insane to disregard this. The reason I raised the issue is that Sen. Kerry takes those people for granted, when he says that he would make sure to provide US troops with all possible support on ‘their mission’. How could he make sure if French and German people are against the war, period? > [@Spiny Norman](#): > > It’s too bad that extending a hand to GWB over Iraq would be pretty much political suicide, but the situation is one of his own making. The reality is, Bush sees it one way, French and German people see it completely different. Unless Bush is God, he can’t make reality. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-french-and-german-people/268355/43 "2004-10-13T21:29:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The reality is, Bush sees it one way, French and German people see it completely different. Unless Bush is God, he can’t make reality. Much as I am loathe to extend this ludicrous thread, I would just point out ‘the French and German people’ do not ‘see things’ any different to the British or Spanish people, or the Australian people, or growing numbers of the American people. > [@](#): > > The reason I raised the issue is that Sen. Kerry takes those people for granted, when he says that he would make sure to provide US troops with all possible support on ‘their mission’. How could he make sure if French and German people are against the war, period? Reading answers that people have given you may avoid the necessity to repeat the same questions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-french-and-german-people/268355/44 "2004-10-14T11:05:30Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You said, So I understood that you were talking of Bush as one factor and ‘the attitude of his administration’ as another factor. You understood incorrectly. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. > [@](#): > > That bring again my point about elitism and ignorance that prevail in US in relation to European politics. Who do you mean when you say, “_France, Germany and others didn’t want to help…_”? Are you talking about elected officials or the people? What is elitist or ignorant about my statement? The people of Europe were certainly opposed to the war, which made it a political impossibility for their leaders to get involved. Bush’s “we’re going to war!” attitude is the primary reason he is so detested in Europe. If it’s arrogant to say he’s detested, you’ll have to explain why that is, because I think the reactions to the war over there bear out the statement. > [@](#): > > Besides, you are contradicting your own words, “_The people in those countries didn’t want to go to war…_” How? If the governments didn’t go to war and the people didn’t want to go to war, there’s a contradiction? I’m not seeing it. Just like I think you were the only one to see a contradiction between ‘Bush pushed our allies aside’ and ‘Bush failed to bring our allies to the table.’ Government are loathe to make stands on principle, and even the French government (cited above) was trying to sound a conciliatory note about going through the proper process and holding Iraq to the resolutions. Schroeder won re-election in Germany mainly because he opposed the war. If Bush had handled things differently, he could have gotten more support. The people in Europe wouldn’t have been so violently opposed to him, and as such their governments would not have been as fearful of the repercussions of supporting him. > [@](#): > > Wrong. Check Russian internet media someday, many sites have English text (like [‘Kommersant’](http://www.kommersant.com/), for instance). It’s at least just as informative and open as US media. Except TV channels. You’re correct that my statement was too general; I thought of the television media when you said the Russian media. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand what brought this on. Do you not read your own posts? > [@Planet of the Shapes](#): > > You make it sound as if Europeans have an irrational hatred of Bush and this affects their view of US policy. Is that what you think? > [@New Iskander](#): > > Straight at the screen, Yes!!! And not only Europeans, **Marley23** too. So go ahead. Straight at the screen, tell me what has been irrational in my posts. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-french-and-german-people/268355/45 "2004-10-14T14:10:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So go ahead. Straight at the screen, tell me what has been irrational in my posts. I said it in answer to this > [@](#): > > The people in those countries didn’t want to go to war, but I think you’ve overlooked the fact that Bush and the attitude of his administration were a big part of the reason why. Just a lame joke attempt. Actually, I thought you made a prescient observation that added a significant dimension to the debate. So when **Planet** tried to imply that I’m close-minded and don’t understand Europeans, I brought your name in, in juxtaposition to the whole of Europe. I thought it was funny. Apparently, I was alone. [striking a pose] Well, I was alone before! [/sap] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-french-and-german-people/268355.md?page=2)