# What about Isreal's WMDs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623 "2003-04-28T07:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/1 "2003-04-28T07:25:07Z")
A Syrian official was on 60 Minutes tonight. He made the observation that Bush has asked Syria to get rid of its WMDs, yet has said nothing to Isreal. Syria claims that Isreal has pretty much what they have and more. I’m honestly not trying to take sides in the Isreali-Arab conflict, but I’d like to know whether people think this is a valid point, and, if so, whether what’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/2 "2003-04-28T09:29:56Z")
Has Syria ever been attacked without provocation by it’s surrounding neighbours on numerous occasions? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/3 "2003-04-28T09:36:46Z")
To provide a bit of background info, MSNBC has a [map](http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/graphics/strategic_israel_dw.htm) showing what’s stored where. (Lest anyone claim that Israel has no such capabilities). ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/4 "2003-04-28T09:50:53Z")
[http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm](http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm) This is a pretty good read. Wonder why they won’t sign off on the treaties? Seems the Muslim world has reason to believe we’re arm in arm with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/5 "2003-04-28T09:51:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skip \* > \*\*Has Syria ever been attacked without provocation by it’s surrounding neighbours on numerous occasions? \*\* That’s irrelevant, as Powell or Rumsfeld rightly said regarding Iraq WMD’s, and I paraphrase, you plan for a potential enemy’s capabilities not their intentions. IMO Syria has every right to possess WMD’s as deterrent to an aggressive neighbour. It’s how deterrence works. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/6 "2003-04-28T09:53:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skip \* > \*\*Has Syria ever been attacked without provocation by it’s surrounding neighbours on numerous occasions? \*\* I’m not sure if the [“Jews for Justice”](http://www.stanford.edu/~bgiddens/index.htm) are considered representitive or a legitimate source, but from [here](http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html) > [@](#): > > Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: ‘In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches **do not prove** that Nasser was really about to attack us. **We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him**.’ I don’t know enough about the situation to argue these (or any) points, but would like to hear clarification as to whether it is historically accepted that Israel **only ever** acted in self defence, or not? As to the OP, this [quote] ([http://www.cactus48.com/partition.html](http://www.cactus48.com/partition.html)) by Truman may answer the question: \* > [@](#): > > “I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.” - ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/7 "2003-04-28T10:38:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skip \* > \*\*Has Syria ever been attacked without provocation by it’s surrounding neighbours on numerous occasions? \*\* Yes, by Israel. In 1967, Israel doubled its size, grabbing land from Jordan, Syria (the Golan Heights) and Egypt. And let’s not forget Palestine. As far as I know, they’re still holding on to that ladn, even though the UN issued Security Council Resolution 242, stressing “the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war” and calling for “withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict”. According ot the UN, the conflict displaced another 500,000 Palestinians who fled to Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. So who’s the aggressor, here? ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/8 "2003-04-28T10:57:07Z")
In response to the claims that Israel was the aggressor in 1967 please note the part where I said “without provocation”. Prior to the 1967 war Egypt had blockaded the Straits of Tiran to Israeli Shipping and begun moving troops into the Sinai (after having thrown out the UN troops who were there to act as a buffer). Added to this was a growing rhetoric from a number of Arab leaders espousing that soon they would attack Israel and wipe it off the face of the planet (or as they liked to put it, driving Israeli’s “into the sea”). From [this](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/67_War.html) page: > [@](#): > > While Nasser continued to make speeches threatening war, Arab terrorist attacks grew more frequent. In 1965, 35 raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched.(5) > > Meanwhile, Syria’s attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967, during which Israeli planes shot down six Syrian MiGs. Shortly thereafter, the Soviet Union-which had been providing military and economic aid to both Syria and Egypt-gave Damascus information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, Syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with Egypt. > > On May 15, Israel’s Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights. > > Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw on May 16. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed (May 18, 1967): > > ``` > "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.(6)" > > ``` > > An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad: > > ``` > "Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.(7)" > > ``` Following this Egypt forced Israel’s hand constantly. Jordan threw their hat into the ring and the rhetoric and threats escelated even further. > [@](#): > > Nasser was fully aware of the pressure he was exerting to force Israel’s hand. The day after the blockade was set up, he said defiantly: “The Jews threaten to make war. I reply: Welcome! We are ready for war.”(10) > > Nasser challenged Israel to fight almost daily. “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight,” he said on May 27.(11) The following day, he added: “We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel…The war with Israel is in effect since 1948.”(12) > > King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30. Nasser then announced: > > ``` > The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.(13) > > ``` > > President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words: “The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map.”(14) On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Did Israel attack first? Sure. Were they the aggressors? Judging by the behaviour of the leadership of Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Jordan, I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/9 "2003-04-28T11:06:59Z")
Whoa. Any chance we could avoid discussions of the '67 war? I mean, **Skip** , is there any relevence as to whether Syria has ever been attacked without provocation by its neighbors anyway? The US has never been attacked without provocation by its neighbors, and I would guess we have more WoMD than anyone else. How is that the justification? Syria continues to repeat that they support removing all WoMD from the ME region. Then they point to Israel. Personally, I’m not even concerned if that tactic is reasonable or valid. I do know it is politically expedient. The US has already (or very nearly) lost the Arab street. Continuing to apply the WoMD doctrine against Arab but not against Israel certainly won’t play well. As they say in this area, “that dog won’t hunt”. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/10 "2003-04-28T11:08:16Z")
…against Arab _nations_\* but not against Israel… ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/11 "2003-04-28T11:53:12Z")
**Skip:** I would also like to avoid a hijack to the '67 war. But let me point out to you that the Jewish Virtual Library / American Israeli Cooperative Enterprise is **far from** being a unbiased source on the subject. A bit to close to the official Israeli line, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/12 "2003-04-28T12:09:51Z")
RandySpears: While I agree that the site as has a bias, do you contest any of the facts put forward with regard to the threats, rhetoric and actions of the Arab leaderhsip of the time towards Israel? ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/13 "2003-04-28T12:33:22Z")
**skip:** Start a thread on the 67’ war and we will discuss it. Until then it is sufficient to say that you have provided a recount of events as reported by one party in the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/14 "2003-04-28T12:55:30Z")
My post was merely in response to Aro and eljfe claiming that Israel attacked Syria without provocation in 1967. I really don’t have any desire to argue over the 1967 war either. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/15 "2003-04-28T13:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*A Syrian official was on 60 Minutes tonight. He made the observation that Bush has asked Syria to get rid of its WMDs, yet has said nothing to Isreal. Syria claims that Isreal has pretty much what they have and more. I’m honestly not trying to take sides in the Isreali-Arab conflict, but I’d like to know whether people think this is a valid point, and, if so, whether what’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. \*\* No, it is not a valid point. Just because we don’t mind one country having WMDs doesn’t mean we’ll tolerate it when others have them. Marc ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/16 "2003-04-28T13:40:50Z")
**Marc** , and how does that, exactly, contribute to the “stability of the region” - a stated goal of the US administration? Only our “friends” have the right to threaten their neighbors? Or, as it plays in the ME, Zionists are allowed whatever toys they want, because the US wants to keep Arabs subservient. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/17 "2003-04-28T13:49:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*[http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm](http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm) > > This is a pretty good read. Wonder why they won’t sign off on the treaties? Seems the Muslim world has reason to believe we’re arm in arm with Israel. \*\* And what’s wrong with that? Israel, remember, is the only country in that region with a real, functioning democratic government. It is the only country in the Middle East with anything resembling a comittment to human rights (admittedly, they have had human rights violations - but then again, so have we. and they don’t have rape rooms.) If there’s anything close to a legitimate, humane government in the region, it’s in Israel. So yeah, it’s entirely appropriate we support them. “Making the Middle East safe for democracy” is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/18 "2003-04-28T13:52:40Z")
_Or, as it plays in the ME, Zionists are allowed whatever toys they want, because the US wants to keep Arabs subservient._ Or perhaps the US would not like to have a dictatorial, quasi-facist government like Syria have access to nuclear weapons (or other WMD), which if anything would make the Israeli’s even more nervous and definitely reduce the stability of the region. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/19 "2003-04-28T13:58:36Z")
**Skip:** I agree with you that it lies within the interests of Israel that Syria not be allowed to have nuclear weapons. Just as it lies within the interests of Syria that Israel not be allowed to have them. But you must admit that there is a problem with always siding with one party in a conflict and at the same time still claim credibility as a mediator. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623/20 "2003-04-28T14:03:28Z")
Nukes! Israel has nukes? Funny, the US was absolutely positive that Saddam had WoMD (including a nuke program), their intelligence being so good and all. But the US won’t admit that Israel has nukes. As for democracy in Israel, please tell me about the representation of the Palestinians in the occupied territories (or in Israel proper, if you prefer). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-isreals-wmds/171623.md?page=2)