# What About the Private Contractors @ Abu Ghaib and Elsewhere? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983 "2004-05-13T18:04:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/1 "2004-05-13T18:04:18Z")
Should DoD & CPA private contractors, in general, be held legally liable for their actions? Should the contractors specifically named as suspects in the Taguba report be subject to prosecution? I say,“Of course they should,” in both instances. I wonder why those in Taguba’s report haven’t been charged. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/2 "2004-05-13T20:13:02Z")
At least the DOJ finally claimed/acknowledged jurisdiction over them. Although to a certain (impractical) extent it would have been poetic and politic to see them turned over to the Iraqi judicial system. Has the DOJ been working with the military in terms of questioning suspects and witnesses? The understanding I am getting is that the military is working little fish in order to get big fish (thus the special as opposed to general court martial leading the way, although it would be wonderful if a military lawyer could give us more info on the difference). If that is the case the DOJ might be waiting to see what comes out of the courts martial of the soldiers and NCO’s. Although IIRC while Gen. Karpinski has denied knowledge and laid the blame at the feet of the contractors, Col. Pappas has said that proper chains of command were followed. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/3 "2004-05-14T00:13:58Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Should DoD & CPA private contractors, in general, be held legally liable for their actions? > > Should the contractors specifically named as suspects in the Taguba report be subject to prosecution? > I say,“Of course they should,” in both instances. > > I wonder why those in Taguba’s report haven’t been charged. I notice your earlier thread on this subject has sunk into oblivion already… ☹ Why doesn’t anyone care about this?!!! More info and questions: > [@](#): > > **Monkerud: Should we support our mercenaries too?** > > Serious questions arise about the use and role of U.S. mercenaries. Due to their secret nature, there is a lack of public and congressional scrutiny. In an article in “The New Yorker,” Seymour Hersh revealed that Donald Rumsfeld is implementing a new “manhunt” program for the U.S. military in Iraq. Modeled after Israeli tactics, which recently used a missile to kill a blind quadriplegic in a wheelchair, it is similar to the Phoenix Program used in Vietnam where U.S. Special Forces assassinated some 41,000 “suspected” enemies between 1968 and 1972. > > What implications will mercenaries raise for U.S. politics? Will private, for-profit firms lobby the U.S. government to undertake wars of national aggression? What role will mercenaries and their investors play in setting U.S. foreign policy? > > What will happen when these powerful private armies, separate from the control of Congress and U.S. citizens, are at the beck and call of foreign governments? > > As these corporate mercenary armies grow in size, influence and power, will the U.S. government be able to control them? [http://www.cjonline.com/stories/042604/opi\_monkerud.shtml](http://www.cjonline.com/stories/042604/opi_monkerud.shtml) Here’s that New Yorker article from _last year_ (!): [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031215fa\_fact](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031215fa_fact) ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/4 "2004-05-14T03:23:20Z")
Well, I was told that there are some hard-boiled mercs who just want to take on members of al-Qaida one-on-one, like GI Joe vs Cobra. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/5 "2004-05-14T03:45:20Z")
[ **annaplurabelle** Forgive me for the comment, but in the quoted article, the passage: > [@](#): > > Modeled after Israeli tactics, which recently used a missile to kill a blind quadriplegic in a wheelchair is quite misleading; the Sheikh Yassin was the political/religious leader of an organization with very strong ties to terrorism (if not a terrorist organization glazed over with other attributes); I don´t condone in any shape or form what Israel did in that instance, but fair is fair and phrasing the episode in those terms shows a large bias. _-End of hijack_ ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/6 "2004-05-14T03:52:36Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > I notice your earlier thread on this subject has sunk into oblivion already… Amazingly too kind of you. Th OP of that one’s cumbersome and poorly written. Can’t really blame anyone for not responding. from November 2000 **[Closing the Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Gap](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:GhyyrMMWO2sJ:www.amsc.belvoir.army.mil/Articles/00-3/scott.htm+%22Military+and+Extraterritorial+Jurisdiction+Act%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en) Holding Civilians Accountable for Felony Crimes Committed Overseas While Supporting the U.S. Military** Department of Defense (DOD) civilians working overseas can literally get away with murder. (Reid v. Covert, 1957) A woman axe-murdered her husband; an Air Force civilian raped a 12-year old girl; and a DOD school teacher molested a minor and videotaped the event. (Reid v. Covert, 1957; Haug, 2000; H.R.3380, 2000) These are just a few examples of serious criminal offenses committed outside the United States and not prosecuted because the host nation declined to prosecute. There was no recourse within the American legal system. Prosecution by U.S. authorities was not possible due to jurisdictional gaps in federal law Averette, a contractor employed by the Army during Vietnam, was tried by a military tribunal and found guilty of black market activities. On appeal to the U.S. Military Court of Appeals, it was affirmed that U.C.M.J. jurisdiction over civilians is restricted to persons accompanying the military “in times of war.” In times of war, as defined in the law, was ruled to mean a Congressionally declared war. (U.S. v. Averette, 1970; M.C.M., 1995) Beginning in 1957, a series of Supreme Court cases starting with Reid v. Covert, challenged the constitutionality of the civilian provisions of Section 802 of the U.C.M.J. The Supreme Court declared Article 2(11) unconstitutional, as it pertains to civilians serving with, employed by, or accompanying the armed forces overseas. Under the U.S. Constitution only civil courts of law have the authority to try civilians for offenses against the United States. In Reid v. Covert, the Supreme Court ruled, “When the U.S. acts against its citizens abroad, it can do so only in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution, including Art. III, § 2, and the Fifth and Sixth Amendments.” (Reid v. Covert, 1957). “The power of Congress under Art. I, § 8, cl. 14, of the Constitution, ‘To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces,’ taken in conjunction with the Necessary and Proper Clause, does not extend to civilians - even though they may be dependents living with servicemen on a military base.” (Reid v. Covert, 1957) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/7 "2004-05-14T03:54:33Z")
Now we have MEJA In some cases, (but not all), American contractors and employees may become legally liable for their actions under the purview of [The Military and Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=106_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ523.106). If such a case were to occur, the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld himself’d have to designate and authorize someone in a law enforcement position in the DoD, to make the arrest. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/8 "2004-05-14T06:33:25Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Now we have MEJA > In some cases, (but not all), American contractors and employees may become legally liable for their actions under the purview of [The Military and Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=106_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ523.106). If such a case were to occur, the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld himself’d have to designate and authorize someone in a law enforcement position in the DoD, to make the arrest. Thanks for the info. But does **Executive Order 13303** have any bearing on this? Would it exempt the civilian contractors from prosecution under MEJA? I can’t make out from what I’ve read so far. **Ale** : I don’t know anything about the author of that first cite, much less his political bias re Israel, but it didn’t seem relevant to the broader questions about the use of these special forces and tactics by the US. I think the questions are valid regardless. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/9 "2004-05-14T08:13:31Z")
Okay, found this at findlaw: > [@](#): > > **Prosecutorial Options in Iraq** > > To facilitate its outsourcing of the business of war, the Pentagon has extended generous legal protection to civilian contractors in Iraq. Under a June 2003 order of the Coalition Provisional Authority, civilian contractors are protected from prosecution in Iraq for crimes committed as part of their official duties. (The exact, though convoluted, language is: “acts performed by them within their official activities pursuant to the terms and conditions of a contract between a contractor and Coalition Forces or the CPA.”) > > Since torture is presumably not foreseen in the contract, it is theoretically possible, if unlikely, that the abuses at Abu Ghraib could be deemed to have been committed outside of the contractors’ official activities. But the possibility is not all that important, since the June 2003 order also provides that crimes committed during the contractors’ free time can only be prosecuted by local officials if coalition administrator Paul Bremer gives his written consent. > > The U.S. could, in any case, consent to local trials. Section 5 of the June 2003 order notes that the contractors’ immunity from prosecution “may be waived by the Parent State.” For contractors in the employ of the United States, the order specifies, it is the U.S. government that could authorize the waiver. > > **Obstacles to Prosecution** > > Although Ashcroft recently announced the Justice Department had jurisdiction over the crimes of civilian contractors in Iraq, he has not indicated that he actually plans to bring such cases. And, indeed, the odds of successful prosecutions are not very promising. > > Rather than sending FBI agents to Iraq to investigate the crimes, Ashcroft has said that federal prosecutors would await the result of the Pentagon’s investigation. But while military investigators may be expert in gathering evidence for court-martial proceedings, it is the FBI’s job to respond to civilian crimes. In 1998, for example, after the bombing of two U.S. embassies in Africa, more than 900 FBI agents were sent on-site to investigate. > > The government’s lack of enthusiasm for a vigorous investigation is a worrying sign. To successfully prosecute crimes committed in Iraq would require a serious commitment of resources. Who would, for example, bring the victims to the United States to testify? And would an American jury really convict an American contractor responsible for harming a foreign - or even an enemy - detainee? > **[FindLaw Legal Blogs - FindLaw](https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/)** > > Get the latest legal news and information, and learn more about laws that impact your everyday life by visiting FindLaw Legal Blogs. Also notes that MEJA is as yet untested. Doesn’t sound too promising, does it? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/10 "2004-05-14T10:15:26Z")
There’s also alot of unsavory mercenaries from the old South African apartheid regime signed up with British security firms. I’ll dig up a cite. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-the-private-contractors-abu-ghaib-and-elsewhere/244983/11 "2004-05-14T14:08:15Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > There’s also alot of unsavory mercenaries from the old South African apartheid regime signed up with British security firms. I’ll dig up a cite. I’ve heard that there’re about 1500 SA in Iraq. Ive only seen evidence that two of them were associated with Apartheid era human rights abuses, murder etc. Francois Strydom and Deon Gouws. All SA employed by prciavte security firms deployed outside of SA are criminals though. SA has law agin being a member of a private security force. Some of the SAs in Iraq won’t be able to go home for fear of prosecution.