# What about those who haven't heard the message of Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434 "2003-07-23T18:04:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/61 "2003-07-27T02:14:19Z")
_“If Heaven exists then God has a lot of explaining to do.”_-Robert DeNiro (answering the question:“If Heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearly Gates?” at the conclusion of his appearance on _Inside The Actor’s Studio_) ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/62 "2003-07-27T02:31:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > _“If Heaven exists then God has a lot of explaining to do.”_-Robert DeNiro (answering the question:“If Heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearly Gates?” at the conclusion of his appearance on _Inside The Actor’s Studio_) If God exists, all of us will have a lot of explaining to do. ME ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/63 "2003-07-27T02:40:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > \*\*If God exists, all of us will have a lot of explaining to do. > ME \*\* So will he! JZ ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/64 "2003-07-27T02:44:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > \*\ ***NaSultainne** > > I believe your “scripture” to be full of errors, inconsistencies, and absurdities. > > Now, what was your argument again? Uh huh. Boy. Atheists are _the_ most belligerent… Has it occurred to you that every Christian was at one time a non-believer? Has it occurred to you that many were atheists, distinctly antagonistic to God? Has it occurred to you to even _wonder_ why such a fundamental shift in thought and behavior happened to them? Have you spent as much time trawling on the likes of Glenn Miller’s Christian Thinktank or JP Holding’s Tektonics sites as you undoubtedly have on the likes of anti-Christian sites? In short, have you honestly sought God, ever, in your life? If you haven’t, I would hardly wonder that you hadn’t found Him. ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/65 "2003-07-27T03:33:30Z")
Freyr, sorry, but your argument still isn’t making much sense to me. > [@](#): > > would there be any debate on how a particular law in the United States applies to French citizens? No. The French have their own laws and rules that are specific to their country. US laws have no bearing on them Freyr, do you _really_ not see the difference here? Christianity doesn’t have national borders. It can’t be true in some places, for some people, and not others; Christians believe that God is _objectively real_, not a matter of opinion. _Why_ is this concept so hard for some people to grasp? Please note that I am _not_ saying that Those Who Have Never Heard are automatically condemned to Hell. My own personal take on the issue is this: Not everyone has access to the specific teachings of Christianity, but everyone has access to _something_ of the truth about God – through nature, through conscience, through the bits of the truth that show up in other religions. They don’t have to attach the name “God” or “Jesus” to that truth in order to respond to it with faith. So far, I think that most Christians in the moderate-to-liberal spectrum would agree with me. The part that I’m less sure about, but I _think_ I believe, is that “Those Who Have Never Heard” are not just the isolated African tribes that always show up in this type of debate; they could very well be people who grew up in the shadow of a church building, or even inside one. Most atheists I’ve met have such a warped, ugly image of what Christianity is that they are _right_ to reject it. Until someone has shown them what Christianity really is, they’re in much the same position as that child in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/66 "2003-07-27T06:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > \*\*Uh huh. Boy. Atheists are _the_ most belligerent… > > Has it occurred to you that every Christian was at one time a non-believer? Has it occurred to you that many were atheists, distinctly antagonistic to God? Has it occurred to you to even _wonder_ why such a fundamental shift in thought and behavior happened to them? Have you spent as much time trawling on the likes of Glenn Miller’s Christian Thinktank or JP Holding’s Tektonics sites as you undoubtedly have on the likes of anti-Christian sites? > > In short, have you honestly sought God, ever, in your life? If you haven’t, I would hardly wonder that you hadn’t found Him. \*\* Do you have any idea how many atheists used to be Christians? Have you spent any time reading atheist literature? Have you studied any Hindu writings? Muslim? Buddhist? Jewish? I have. I’ve come to the conclusion that the religious experience is real and transformative, that the individuals who experience it experience it as a sort of hyper-reality, not as a dream state, and that they have no doubts about the authenticity of the experience. The content of these experiences is not religion-specific, though. Hindus experience visions of Shiva and Vishnu just as surely as Christians hear Christ. Buddhists get blown out by Nirvanic experiences and Muslims feel the warmth and love of Allah. In ancient days people saw Apollo and Odin and Osirus. So the experience is real but why is it so variable? Is it just a coincidence that people tend to see the gods of their own cultures? Why doesn’t Jesus ever appear to Hindus. He can if he wants to can’t he? Is it possible that God is beyond all the individual visions and perceptions and dogmas? Is it possible that Jesus, as a god of Love, is only one path among many? Some Hindu philosophy says that God is without form and unknowable but that people can only relate to forms so it is necessary to invent personal gods in order to communicate transcendant truths. All gods are just different masks, different manifestations, different avenues into wordless Brahman. Even something impersonal like a love and veneration of nature or science can work under this scenario. If Jesus is the God of Love then “No one gets to the father but through me” means that there is no salvation without love. Is that possible. Is God really that concerned with a specfic belief in a specific religious dogma or does he want people to love each other? I know which God I would prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Elewyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Elewyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elewyne)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/67 "2003-07-27T13:38:45Z")
posted by Julie– Because you said that God was already there–that people can already hear God’s voice, even if they never hear a missionary. Are you saying that a missionary can do something that God can’t? That seems pretty counterintuitive to me. My post God is there if one believes God is omnipresent, and I do. I beleive God calls to people all the time, but that doesn’t mean that people always hear. So many things can drown out God’s voice. Maybe the only voice that will get through is a human voice. I still don’t see how it is consistent to say a missionary can do harm but not do good. If one is possible then the other has to be possible too. Na Sultainne, I believe scripture has truth and hope and that message can be beuatiful to those that hear it, but faith comes from trusting in God, and there are those who did that before Jesus even came to earth such as Abraham. I believe Jesus is the way, but what does Jesus represent? Jesus represents God’s love and forgiveness. I don’t think people need to know the exact semantics to believe in that for wasn’t Abraham credited with faith without knowing how God was going to work through Jesus? I’ve thought about this question quite a bit, and it seems to me what is essentially required to draw close to God is a humble heart. That to me is the heart of christainity, and to me can be done by anyone anywhere at anytime for God is everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/68 "2003-07-27T14:39:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Uh huh. Boy. Atheists are the most belligerent… Ignorant assumptions will destroy your credibility every time. I am not an atheist and never have been. I am an agnostic with leanings towards Deism, and I hold a whole bunch of Christian beliefs I can’t seem to shake. > [@](#): > > Has it occurred to you that every Christian was at one time a non-believer? A patently absurd comment. If you were raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, as I was, you had Christianity pounded into your skull starting from the day you were born. My lullaby was never “Rock-a-bye-Baby”, it was “Jesus Loves Me”. I have **never** not believed in Jesus Christ. I have been a believer for as long as I have the ability to remember. I have never made a conscious decision to believe. > [@](#): > > Has it occurred to you to even wonder why such a fundamental shift in thought and behavior happened to them? More often than not, in my experience, it happens because some ignorant fundie convinces them they will rot in Hell if they don’t believe… > [@](#): > > In short, have you honestly sought God, ever, in your life? If you haven’t, I would hardly wonder that you hadn’t found Him. Again, another ignorant, indirect assumption. I have been seeking God, or more precisely, the truth of His nature, for more than a decade. It is this constant, rational, honest search that has led me to the original point of my prior post. My search has convinced me that the Bible is nothing more than a book written my men who were trying to understand the nature of God. It is a good book, but it’s a human book that contains many errors and inconsistancies. I choose not to worship a book. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/69 "2003-07-27T15:44:16Z")
**Cliffy (on pg 1)**: > [@](#): > > Yours is a pleasant interpretation of the scipture, **MacMike** , but it’s pretty directly in contravention with the majority of Christian thought on the issue. He is, nevertheless, right. That’s the way I’ve always read it. The conventional mainstream Christian interpretations seem to depend on a great many tortured and farfetched leaps of logic. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/70 "2003-07-28T00:32:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Do you have any idea how many atheists used to be Christians? The number would appear to be statistically insignificant. Unless you can offer something comparable to the 1.5 billion Chritians worldwide. > [@](#): > > Have you spent any time reading atheist literature? Have you studied any Hindu writings? Muslim? Buddhist? Jewish? **Diogenes** , you and I have skirted around these edges before. This site moves far too quickly to do an exhaustive discussion of the steps you or I have taken in our search of existing evidence for the truth and legitimacy of religions, per se. And yes, as I’m sure I have answered in the past, this very path, one of evaluation and elimation, was the one I pursued which led me to Christianity. > [@](#): > > I have. I’ve come to the conclusion that the religious experience is real and transformative…_\<\\>_ Excellent. I had not hoped to expect as much. > [@](#): > > The content of these experiences is not religion-specific, though. Hindus experience visions of Shiva and Vishnu just as surely as Christians hear Christ. Buddhists get blown out by Nirvanic experiences and Muslims feel the warmth and love of Allah. In ancient days people saw Apollo and Odin and Osirus. Okay, back up a little. You’re getting a bit lax here. Those who saw Apollo and Odin, yada yada, no longer exist. Ergo, the so-called god they worshipped was something less than god-like. (I present this as a conclusion minus the intermediate argument - I take it as given that the distinction is clear.) As to Allah, please correct me if I’m wrong, but my study indicates that Islam does not believe in a personal god in the manner of Christianity. Are you quite sure about this characterization? As to Hindus and Buddhists, I have several objections that have satisfied my criteria for rational faith, but let me leave it at this: if I give a class an essay on the definition of love, what can I expect to happen? Most will likely give a fair to good description, a few will be lacking in their proffer, a few likely will be closer to the mark. One may actually quote writers through the ages and sum it up with the dictionary definition as a thorough, perhaps overdone presentation. Surely all will be in the ballpark, yet there will be one closer to the “correct” answer. I have come to view many other religions in this manner. > [@](#): > > the experience is real but why is it so variable? Is it just a coincidence that people tend to see the gods of their own cultures? Why doesn’t Jesus ever appear to Hindus. He can if he wants to can’t he? Careful with what you’re asking for here. Would a Hindu have any concept of the legitimacy of his “vision”, for vision I would venture he would call it. And why do you insist that Jesus do such? Was not His one appearing, witnessed thousands, not enough? Isn’t this more of the “I won’t believe it until I step in it” argument? > [@](#): > > Is it possible that Jesus, as a god of Love, is only one path among many? You’ve raised this point before. Have you not considered the inconsistencies inherent in this statement? Jews believe that their Messiah is coming, yet Jesus was not him. Christians believe Jesus was the promised Messiah, Son of God, and He will return at some future time to judge the world. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet only, NOT the son of God, and Mohammed was the last prophet. (Aside; this is why evangelical Christians believe that Allah is not Jehovah.) The Hindu belief of multitudinal gods is in stark contrast to the monotheistic religions. Buddhists do not believe in any god, per se. These beliefs cannot co-exist as they are logically contradictory in nature. > [@](#): > > If Jesus is the God of Love then “No one gets to the father but through me” means that there is no salvation without love. Is that possible. Is God really that concerned with a specfic belief in a specific religious dogma or does he want people to love each other? First sentence, yes, I agree. There is no salvation without love. Is God really _that_ concerned…? Yes, though not in the dogmatic, legalistic"it’s all in the way you hold your mouth" manner. You’re pushing against hell again, insisting that it’s an all-or-nothing proposition, and I won’t even consider giving that inch; it’s an artificial construct. IF you truly read the bible, looking for patterns and principles and actions and events, it’s remarkably cohesive. BUT. This is the same Jesus who said: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. > [@](#): > > I know which God I would prefer. Should God align with your values or you with His? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/71 "2003-07-28T00:43:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > \*\*Ignorant assumptions will destroy your credibility every time. I am not an atheist and never have been. I am an agnostic with leanings towards Deism, and I hold a whole bunch of Christian beliefs I can’t seem to shake. Not an ignorant assumption at all. It has been my experience that those self-defined as agnostic are open to others’ religious perspectives, whereas atheists tend to be overtly and aggressively hostile. > [@](#): > > If you were raised in a fundamentalist Christian home, as I was, you had Christianity pounded into your skull starting from the day you were born. My lullaby was never “Rock-a-bye-Baby”, it was “Jesus Loves Me”. I have **never** not believed in Jesus Christ. I have been a believer for as long as I have the ability to remember. I have never made a conscious decision to believe. Then perhaps you are mentally battling something more than mere “beliefs”. In which case I encourage more of the same. > [@](#): > > More often than not, in my experience, it happens because some ignorant fundie convinces them they will rot in Hell if they don’t believe… Ahh, I see. So. If I point a loaded gun at your head and demand that you _believe_ I can fly through walls, you’ll believe? I mean, really _believe_, not just mollify me? Curious. You have a rather casual definition of belief. (And this snarky attitude is the type of comment that justifies my earlier conclusion that you are an atheist. Why the vehemence?) > [@](#): > > I have been seeking God, or more precisely, the truth of His nature, for more than a decade. It is this constant, rational, honest search that has led me to the original point of my prior post. My search has convinced me that the Bible is nothing more than a book written my men who were trying to understand the nature of God. It is a good book, but it’s a human book that contains many errors and inconsistancies. This is truly unfortunate. I encourage you to continue your search. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/72 "2003-07-28T01:32:23Z")
> [@](#): > > It has been my experience that those self-defined as agnostic are open to others’ religious perspectives, I am absolutely open to all perspectives, religious or otherwise. What I am not open to is people throwing scripture around, like you were doing earlier in this thread, and expecting us all to fall in line like good little boys and girls. > [@](#): > > Then perhaps you are mentally battling something more than mere “beliefs”. In which case I encourage more of the same. This could be taken several ways, I will choose to assume you are making a positive comment on my honest search for truth. > [@](#): > > (And this snarky attitude is the type of comment that justifies my earlier conclusion that you are an atheist. Why the vehemence?) The vehemence comes from years of seeing it with my own eyes. I suppose you could say that I’m painting all fundamentalists with one broad stroke, but aren’t you doing the same with atheists? I will attempt to keep my vehemence with you to a dull roar, until I get to know you better, if you will do the same with your assumptions regarding atheists. > [@](#): > > I encourage you to continue your search. Of that you can rest assured. However, I don’t expect you will like the result. From your post to Diogenes: > [@](#): > > IF you truly read the bible, looking for patterns and principles and actions and events, it’s remarkably cohesive. As you would expect to find in any good work of fiction. What you would not expect to find, however, is over a thousand documented errors, inconsistencies, and absurdities. Even if you could logically explain away these errors to an intellectually honest person, why should you have to? This is my biggest problem – why would a book inspired by Almighty God be so badly written? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/73 "2003-07-28T02:37:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > \*\*I am absolutely open to all perspectives, religious or otherwise. What I am not open to is people throwing scripture around, like you were doing earlier in this thread, and expecting us all to fall in line like good little boys and girls. The question was posed to Christians. I responded. Subsequent discussion is certainly warranted, but to harangue my post as “throwing scripture around” and “expecting us to all fall in line” was out of line. When someone asks for a response based on Christian perspective, it’s hardly your place to then blindside me because I responded in good faith. > [@](#): > > This could be taken several ways, I will choose to assume you are making a positive comment on my honest search for truth. It was indeed intended as such. I commend all who honestly pursue truth. The path can be long and difficult at times. The destination is worth the journey. > [@](#): > > The vehemence comes from years of seeing it with my own eyes. I suppose you could say that I’m painting all fundamentalists with one broad stroke, but aren’t you doing the same with atheists? I will attempt to keep my vehemence with you to a dull roar, until I get to know you better, if you will do the same with your assumptions regarding atheists. May I remind you who threw the first punch? And may I also mention that the SDMB is hardly friendly ground to conservative Christian thought? AND may I point out your derogatory use of the term “fundamentalists” as evidence of such? > [@](#): > > Of that you can rest assured. However, I don’t expect you will like the result. Truth will out. I have faith in God that He does not lose those who truly seek Him. That would allow Lucifer the victory. > [@](#): > > From your post to Diogenes: > > As you would expect to find in any good work of fiction. > > What you would not expect to find, however, is over a thousand documented errors, inconsistencies, and absurdities. Even if you could logically explain away these errors to an intellectually honest person, why should you have to? This is my biggest problem – why would a book inspired by Almighty God be so badly written? Need I waste time pointing out that there exists no corresponding work of fiction written over the same time span by a like number and variety of authors? This is a poor argument. As to your second point, which is a valid point to consider. Do you accept linguistic, cultural, translational, transliterational and other explanations as potentially legitimate areas of explanation? If so, then your “thousand documented errors…” is much, much less than that. If you are not, you are certainly not demonstrating that honest search for truth you described. I have found, when honestly seeking to discover the reason and answer for a so-called error that very, very few hold up. I can now, sitting at my computer, recall specifically two. That I do not have the answer is not to say the answer does not exist. I am satisfied, having had dozens of “errors, contradictions, and absurdities” explained via much research and reading, that answers will be found for the two. As an example, I have recently found the Hebrew scriptural explanation for PI in the Bible, which, I must admit, quite tickled me. As to your last point, why should you (or I or anyone) have to search for answers? Personally, I find it a means of evangelizing to non-believers. If I can keep you talking and thinking and reasoning and listening, at some point God will do what only He can. As scripture says, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God! ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/74 "2003-07-28T03:10:38Z")
The Orthodox position on the matter is that no one has any idea of who’s going to Hell, what Hell is, or what God is planning on doing in general. Quite reasonable, really. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/75 "2003-07-28T03:12:46Z")
Well, this thread is already hijacked beyond any hope of recovery, so I guess I will continue unless the OP objects. > [@](#): > > Do you accept linguistic, cultural, translational, transliterational and other explanations as potentially legitimate areas of explanation? And away you go. Why can’t the Bible just mean what is says? Why does there always have to be ‘it could have been’, or ‘it might have been’, or ‘this is what the verse really means’ type of “explanations”? If the Bible says that grass is purple, then it means that grass is purple. I don’t want hear things like, “Well, Isaiah thought the grass was purple even though it really was green. You see, in those days, people often said purple when they meant green”. This is the type of BS I’ve been hearing for years, and it just doesn’t fly anymore. Either the Bible says what it says, and means what it says, or it is useless for study. Either Mary Magdalene saw Christ after the resurrection, or she didn’t see him and thought his body was stolen. It **can’t be both**. This is just one, and there are a thousand more. > [@](#): > > If I can keep you talking and thinking and reasoning and listening, at some point God will do what only He can. Yes, but are you open to thinking, reasoning, and listening as well? I didn’t think so… ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/76 "2003-07-28T05:47:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by c\_carol \* > \*\*Freyr, sorry, but your argument still isn’t making much sense to me. > > Freyr, do you _really_ not see the difference here? Christianity doesn’t have national borders. It can’t be true in some places, for some people, and not others; Christians believe that God is _objectively real_, not a matter of opinion. _Why_ is this concept so hard for some people to grasp?\*\* First, **c\_carol** , one point to make is that I’m a polytheist, not a monotheist. You see only one god, I see many. I’ve been able to experience both the Christian God and Freyr of the Vanir in ecstatic experiences in my past. I know polytheism to be as true as the you’re sure of the existence of Jesus. Consider my analogy again. Tell me how the US, having its own laws invalidates the laws of the French? From my viewpoint, both can co-exist, those who follow the Christian God follow His rules whilst those who follow other Gods follow _their_ rules. Since I don’t follow the Christian God, I’m not bound by His rules. Nor are anyone else who doesn’t follow Him. This is monotheistic myopia, being blinded by your own perspective so that can’t see or acknowledge any other. \*\* > [@](#): > > Please note that I am _not_ saying that Those Who Have Never Heard are automatically condemned to Hell. My own personal take on the issue is this: Not everyone has access to the specific teachings of Christianity, but everyone has access to _something_ of the truth about God – through nature, through conscience, through the bits of the truth that show up in other religions. They don’t have to attach the name “God” or “Jesus” to that truth in order to respond to it with faith.\*\* So you think there’s only one God who simply presents himself to different cultures in different ways? Consider this analogy: A point of very bright white light, when filtered thru a prism will be divided into a multitude of colors. The _Numen_, when filtered thru the prism of our experience and senses, will divide itself into the various gods and goddess that are known to our world. Some Christians might jump in here and say that their God is the _Numen_, to which I say they’re confusing one color in the spectrum for the source of light, itself. _shrug_ \*\* > [@](#): > > So far, I think that most Christians in the moderate-to-liberal spectrum would agree with me. The part that I’m less sure about, but I _think_ I believe, is that “Those Who Have Never Heard” are not just the isolated African tribes that always show up in this type of debate; they could very well be people who grew up in the shadow of a church building, or even inside one. Most atheists I’ve met have such a warped, ugly image of what Christianity is that they are _right_ to reject it. Until someone has shown them what Christianity really is, they’re in much the same position as that child in the OP. \*\* I pretty much agree. But I’ve found my path and am quite happy with it. Should I ever consider converting back to a monotheistic religion, I’d probably end up as a Reform Jew. ;j ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/77 "2003-07-28T06:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > \*\*Frankly, I’d like some scriptural support for this posture; contrary to your assertion, Jesus declared: > > _(Bible quotes deleted for space)_ > \*\* There’s no Scriptural support for the position, since it’s borne of polytheism rather than monotheism. _shrug_ \*\* > [@](#): > > Scripture is very clear that the word of God is given to be preached to all men everywhere. It is a universal declaration of salvation. \*\* For a religion that makes this important in its doctrine, I’m sure it it. Since I’m not Christian nor bound by its rules, I could care less. Nor have I been shown any objective evidence that Christianity is the _right_ religion or any better than any other religion. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/78 "2003-07-28T06:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > And away you go. Why can’t the Bible just mean what is says? Why does there always have to be ‘it could have been’, or ‘it might have been’, or ‘this is what the verse really means’ type of “explanations”? And here I thought you were searching for truth. We’re talking about one language dead for 2500 years, still today imperfectly re-constituted, another all but dead, and translated into yet another now dead (for all intents and purposes) language. Yet you expect the english translation to carry all the flair and flavor of three ANE languages? You have an over-simplified idea of the variation amongst linguistic nodes. > [@](#): > > This is the type of BS I’ve been hearing for years, and it just doesn’t fly anymore. Either the Bible says what it says, and means what it says, or it is useless for study. You’ve just used an expression “doesn’t fly” that wouldn’t make sense if literally translated in most other languages. People would look askance at your ideas regarding the nature of flight, and rightly so. Add to that a 2,000-3500 span in cultural and linguistic usage and perhaps you’d care to re-think your objections. > [@](#): > > Yes, but are you open to thinking, reasoning, and listening as well? I didn’t think so… You’re short-tempered, hostile, and presumptuous. I am open to thinking, reasoning and listening. I do expect reason to be at the top of the list. What you are demanding is one simple worldwide concept expressed and contained in an individual word, easily paired with the identical, corresponding word in each and every language known to man. Your expectation is unthinking, unreasoning, and demonstrates a refusal to consider knowledge beyond your own. ---
**Author:** ![RoundGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90ced4/32.png) [@RoundGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoundGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/79 "2003-07-28T19:01:12Z")
> [@](#): > > We’re talking about one language dead for 2500 years, still today imperfectly re-constituted, another all but dead, and translated into yet another now dead (for all intents and purposes) language. Yet you expect the english translation to carry all the flair and flavor of three ANE languages? You have an over-simplified idea of the variation amongst linguistic nodes. You have got to be kidding me. We’re not talking about the ancient Hebrew recipe for matza balls here. We’re talking about the supposed **Word of God**. I would expect what any reasonable person would expect. I would expect that an infinitely wise, almighty, omniscient God would give us His Word (the message of eternal salvation, no less) in such a way that it would be timeless and not open to debate. I would expect that an infinitely wise, almighty, omniscient God would **know** that languages change and die and would insure that His Word would be preserved **exactly as he meant it**. I would expect that an infinitely wise, almighty, omniscient God would forsee the hypothetical purple/green grass problem and either use the term green, or not talk about such a meaningless thing at all! You see, it’s bad enough that we are expected to believe the major absurdities, like an obscure Jewish girl from a backwater town like Nazareth getting pregnant by God, and then giving birth to God (what?!); but it’s the little errors that are the icing on the cake. The little, silly, mundane, **unnecessary** errors that make the idea of Biblical innerrancy truly laughable. > [@](#): > > You’ve just used an expression “doesn’t fly” that wouldn’t make sense if literally translated in most other languages. You are exactly right, and that’s exactly my point. I am not God. I do not expect my words to be read by billions of people, in every language on the planet, millenia from now. If I did, I certainly would not have used the term. So, you’re saying God is not wise enough to figure that out? > [@](#): > > You’re short-tempered, hostile, and presumptuous. And so you resort to the ad hominem attack. Typical. You will notice that, while I have attacked your words, ideas, and beliefs, I have never attacked you personally. I am surprised you resorted to such tactics so soon in our discussion. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-about-those-who-havent-heard-the-message-of-christ/190434/80 "2003-07-29T00:13:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RoundGuy \* > \*\*You have got to be kidding me. We’re not talking about the ancient Hebrew recipe for matza balls here. We’re talking about the supposed **Word of God**. I would expect what any reasonable person would expect. So, let me get this straight. God should be simple because, why again? Demonstrate for me the simplicity of a table. Then listen while a physics discussion of the atomic structure, the angles, the size/weight ratio, etc. demolish your definition of simple. In the same way, much of the Bible can be read and understood on the surface level. The Ten Commandments would fall in the category. That does not prevent God from including deeper concepts about His nature for those inspired to search and learn. _Love_ would such an example. What does _love_ mean? Physical love? Emotional love? Spiritual love? Love between brothers, sisters, friends, neighbors…enemies? The Bible is simple _and_ complex; if all you want is a monosyllabic do/do not list to cover all of life’s exigencies, you’re short-changing yourself and God. > [@](#): > > I would expect that an infinitely wise, almighty, omniscient God would give us His Word (the message of eternal salvation, no less) in such a way that it would be timeless and not open to debate. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. > [@](#): > > I would expect that an infinitely wise, almighty, omniscient God would **know** that languages change and die and would insure that His Word would be preserved **exactly as he meant it**. Oh, you mean the same God that has enabled the resurrection of the Hebrew language after 2500 years? Uh huh. The same God who protected a remnant of the Jewish people through the diaspora and centuries of persecution culminating in the attempted genocide of the Holocaust as a symbol of His faithfulness, ultimately returning them to their ancient homeland? Demonstrating that the promises first made to Abraham will be fulfilled? By the very people He described as a “kingdom of priests”? Who do you think they are “preaching” to by their very story? The world. > [@](#): > > I would expect that an infinitely wise, almighty, omniscient God would forsee the hypothetical purple/green grass problem and either use the term green, or not talk about such a meaningless thing at all! _Sigh_. You’re asking for God to _dictate_ His word rather than inspire men to write as led by the Holy Spirit. Fine. That’s not what God wanted to do. He let the personality of the writer’s influence their writings. That’s why the Bible is more than merely a technical “how-to” manual. It contains poetry, narrative, genealogy, history and more. The very nature of the Bible is a clue to the nature of God. > [@](#): > > You see, it’s bad enough that we are expected to believe the major absurdities, like an obscure Jewish girl from a backwater town like Nazareth getting pregnant by God, and then giving birth to God (what?!); Your bias is astounding. The family line descending from King David fulfilled prophecy. The virgin birth fulfilled prophecy. The simple background of Mary’s family fulfilled prophecy. Jesus Himself proclaimed His ministry to preach good news to the poor…freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind; to relase the oppressed. > [@](#): > > but it’s the little errors that are the icing on the cake. The little, silly, mundane, **unnecessary** errors that make the idea of Biblical innerrancy truly laughable. I have heard this grand pronouncement from innumerable people. Yet once an error is actually named, most are quickly answered. > [@](#): > > You are exactly right, and that’s exactly my point. I am not God. I do not expect my words to be read by billions of people, in every language on the planet, millenia from now. If I did, I certainly would not have used the term. So, you’re saying God is not wise enough to figure that out? And yet, here we sit arguing over this “silly” book. It has influenced centuries of thought and deed, and is vibrant today. Perhaps God’s “built-in” tolerance level for “error” has survived the thousands of years of man’s best, yet imperfect, attempts to maintain the integrity despite all the odds. > [@](#): > > And so you resort to the ad hominem attack. Typical. You will notice that, while I have attacked your words, ideas, and beliefs, I have never attacked you personally. I am surprised you resorted to such tactics so soon in our discussion. Actually, I was not attacking you so much as labeling your attitude to date in this thread, at least as it comes across in print. Let me point out your verbiage giving me the impression formed: in your very first post you used such high octane terms as “ignorant assumptions”, “patently absurd comment”, “ignorant fundie”. Your final statement, that you were open to “thinking reasoning, and listening” but declined to give me the same benefit (you responded to your rhetorical question re my ability to do likewise by saying “I didn’t think so”) has left me with the impression that you are indeed as I stated. Your usage in this post of the term “there you go again” is hardly likely to inspire open communication. I do apologize if you are offended. It was not my intent. 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