# What actions of a previous Pope can a new Pope undo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 12, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742 "2013-03-12T18:47:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/41 "2013-03-15T12:40:19Z")
I agree with you. I’m just letting you know those in power don’t agree with us. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/42 "2013-03-18T18:09:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Actually, I believe anyone can perform a baptism, right? Oh yes. Read about the case of Edgardo Mortara. He was Jewish and his family was living in the Papal States. When he was six he was seriously ill and the maid _against the parents’ wishes_ baptized him in case he died. He didn’t and Pius IX ruled it a valid baptism. Since in the Papal States an non-Christian could not raise a Christian, Pio Nono ordered him kidnapped and adopted out of his family. This was in the 1850s ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/43 "2013-03-19T01:26:42Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Oh yes. Read about the case of Edgardo Mortara. He was Jewish and his family was living in the Papal States. When he was six he was seriously ill and the maid _against the parents’ wishes_ baptized him in case he died. He didn’t and Pius IX ruled it a valid baptism. Since in the Papal States an non-Christian could not raise a Christian, Pio Nono ordered him kidnapped and adopted out of his family. > > This was in the 1850s The laws of the Papal States did not permit Catholic servants in non Catholic home, especially with children, specifically for these cases. The Mortaras knew the law and knowignly broke it. It wasn’t against the parents’ wishes. It was discovered several years later by the girl’s own confession. All baptisms that use water, the right intention, and the right formula are valid; it0s not the “the pope ruled it valid” as something ominous or strange: it is valid unless there are reasons not to believe it. Calling the application of a well-known law, which you yourself brought onto you by breaking another law, a kidnapping is stretching it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/44 "2013-03-19T01:44:26Z")
What on earth are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/45 "2013-03-19T15:20:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The laws of the Papal States did not permit Catholic servants in non Catholic home, especially with children, specifically for these cases. The Mortaras knew the law and knowignly broke it. > > It wasn’t against the parents’ wishes. It was discovered several years later by the girl’s own confession. > > All baptisms that use water, the right intention, and the right formula are valid; it0s not the “the pope ruled it valid” as something ominous or strange: it is valid unless there are reasons not to believe it. > > Calling the application of a well-known law, which you yourself brought onto you by breaking another law, a kidnapping is stretching it. What? You’re saying the Mortaras wanted their maid to baptize their son? And it was based on her confession? And I like the slippery slope that since the Mortaras broke the law by employing a Christian, it is their own fault that she baptised their child and as a result Pio Nono had him seized. Are you also saying that baptism can be done to someone against their will? Nevermind if someone is mentally developed enough to RECEIVE the sacrament but if I’m waterboarding a Muslim and I say, “I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” they are now a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/46 "2013-03-19T19:10:23Z")
Here’s the Wiki article on the Mortara controversy: [Mortara case - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/47 "2013-03-20T01:38:48Z")
In the view of the Church, baptism can indeed be done to someone against their will. This is sort of necessary, given that the most common recipients of the sacrament are infants. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/48 "2013-03-20T03:59:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In the view of the Church, baptism can indeed be done to someone against their will. This is sort of necessary, given that the most common recipients of the sacrament are infants. Actually, no. Infants are baptised, not _against_ their will, but _without_ their will. An infant is incapable of forming an intention on this matter, either way. Once a candidate for baptism is capable of forming an intention (and this would be not just adults, but also children who have reached “catechetical age”, the age at which religious instruction becomes possible) then, in the view of the Catholic church, an intention to be baptised is necessary for a valid baptism. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/49 "2013-03-20T05:22:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is there a mechanism for removing a pope who loses his marbles, other than having the next incumbent murder him (and yes, I understand that method hasn’t been used in quite some time)? An emergency meeting of the college of Cardinals? The last time they elected a non-Cardinal was 1378. The papacy had moved back to Rome after a long stay at Avignon (or more precisely, had moved back to Rome briefly, then back to Avignon again briefly, then back again supposedly for good) and the crowd, tired of French popes, shouted “Give us a Roman, or at least an Italian!” Urban VI (from Naples) let the power go to his head immediately and was called _Urbanus Turbanus_ “Urban the Disturbed”. His tendency to shout at all the cardinals that they were thieves and crooks did have the excuse that it was in most cases perfectly true, but putting them in chains for public display was a bit much; he then started accusing them all of plotting to murder him, which was probably also true. So: the Cardinals decided to take a different approach than assassinating him, meeting to declare that his election was invalid “as having been procured by force and threats.” Unfortunately the new Pope they elected was the most controversial possible choice: Robert of Geneva was called the “Butcher of Cesena” for massacring a village in the course of reconquering the Papal States as part of the campaign to make it safer for the papacy to return to Rome. He got chased out of Italy and took up residence in Avignon, starting a disastrous schism. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/50 "2013-03-20T22:32:06Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What? You’re saying the Mortaras wanted their maid to baptize their son? And it was based on her confession? And I like the slippery slope that since the Mortaras broke the law by employing a Christian, it is their own fault that she baptised their child and as a result Pio Nono had him seized. > > Are you also saying that baptism can be done to someone against their will? Nevermind if someone is mentally developed enough to RECEIVE the sacrament but if I’m waterboarding a Muslim and I say, “I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” they are now a Christian? The law existed specifically to avoid these kinds of things, where a Catholic would see it as beneficial for the kid to be baptized even if against the parents’ tacit/explicit desires. We may decry the law as unfair and barbaric, but it wasn’t an obscure law that nobody knew, and the consequences were clear. A slip of the tongue is usually true. There wouldn’t be any gain for her to lie. If you actively resist the sacrament you don’t receive it. On the other hand, if you don’t believe in any god or the christian one it’s an empty ceremony. [Edgardo Levi-Mortara’s testimony.](http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope025501.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/51 "2013-03-22T23:02:48Z")
My understanding is that ordination of women would be a radical break, but allowing married priests would not be. For one thing, there are already a number of married priests. Some Anglican married priests converted and became RC priests, obviously still married. Second, there are a few sects within Catholicism that regularly have married priests. I know a woman who is a member of sect called Greek Catholics. They recognize and are recognized by the Roman church and consider themselves Catholic (although not Roman Catholic) fully accepting the pope as their supreme authority. But their priests are married and always have been. And Rome accepts that too. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742/52 "2013-03-23T00:59:19Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > One of the reasons there is no female priests is that it hasn’t been done before. Actually it has (there’s very little new under the sun). Several early Gnostic Christian heresies ordained women to the priesthood and even the mainstream Church had its problems with this. > [@](#): > > This Pope (Gelasius) condemns very harshly the conduct of bishops who went against certain church canons by conferring priestly ordination on some women. He is probably referring to canons from four councils which took place within a 100 year span starting in the second half of the 4th century; the councils of Nicaea, Laodicea, Nimes and the first council of Orange (441). These church councils prohibited women from participating in the liturgical service in any way, or from being members of the clergy. In Pope Gelasius’ own words he says; "“Nevertheless we have heard to our annoyance that divine > affairs have come to such a low state that women are encouraged to officiate at the sacred altars, and to take part in all matters imputed to the offices of the male sex, to which they do not belong.” > > Also, since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21 [Link](http://www.bibleprobe.com/womanpriests.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actions-of-a-previous-pope-can-a-new-pope-undo/652742.md?page=2)