# What actually happens in the Landmark Forum seminars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434 "2007-04-17T05:20:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/41 "2007-04-19T17:06:11Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] Do they get to attend for free if they volunteer? Not that I’m comparing it, but most of the scientologist that teach and do assists are volunteers. [/QUOTE] They are in attendance at most of the class and get to sit and listen, but they do so from the back of the room, unobtrusively. Beforehand, they do things like make copies and collate handouts and set up chairs. During the seminar, they fill water pitchers, make sure there are pens and things for people who need them and hand out and collect stuff. It’s surprisingly highly choreographed, with a Course Supervisor (he’s like the House Manager) the Production Supervisor (much like the Stage Manager) and the rest of the Assistants who answer to them. So when you reach a point in the “script” where suddenly 300 people need a piece of paper and a pen, the Assistants know who needs to pass out what where to make it happen smoothly and without undue distraction or breaking the rhythm of the seminar. You do get a lot of the information without paying for it, which is a great perk. They’re big on insisting that you set personal goals before your weekend of Assisting starts, and they check in to see how things are going and make sure, in their words, “that you get more out of Assisting than you put into it.” I definitely felt that was the case the several times I Assisted. It was fun, and I learned stuff, and I made and set some great goals that I’ve carried on in my real life. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/42 "2007-04-19T17:41:35Z")
[QUOTE=CeilingWhacks] Please see: [http://www.morerevealed.com/library/mr/newmr\_30.jsp](http://www.morerevealed.com/library/mr/newmr_30.jsp) For some information on the effectiveness of AA. I believe AA’s own study found between 3% and 5% of the people who entered their “program” actually stayed for more than a year. This is, of course not an indication that that 3-5% were actually SOBER…just that they continued to attend meetings. They called it a “success rate” nonetheless. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite for that **from** AA? You know that AA is stricktly a non-profit volunteer organization, right? People attend one hour meetings and go their merry way. Besides there’s no comparison between AA and Landmark. Different animal. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/43 "2007-04-19T17:43:51Z")
The only way it would make sense to me that they’d have so many volunteers is if they offered free attendance or something like that. Otherwise they’d just hire a few people at minimum wage to hand out papers and pencils. Is it expensive? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/44 "2007-04-19T17:59:04Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] The only way it would make sense to me that they’d have so many volunteers is if they offered free attendance or something like that. Otherwise they’d just hire a few people at minimum wage to hand out papers and pencils. Is it expensive? [/QUOTE] There is no free attendance to attend a future seminar, if that’s what you’re asking. You see and hear most of the one you’re Assisting at, but you don’t participate like the attendees do. The seminars vary in price. The Forum - which is three days, one evening and the tuition includes an optional 10 week, one-night-a-week seminar series - is right now $440 in the US. (It’s free for police officers and firemen, by the way.) The Advanced Course is $795 (but you get a large chunk off if you enroll for the Advanced within some time limit after your Forum). Communications are $425 and $675 - again, the second one is given a substantial discount if you sign up soon after the first one. ---
**Author:** ![CeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/45 "2007-04-19T18:58:35Z")
[QUOTE=Harriet the Spry] I know nothing about Landmark, but do call BS on for-profit companies having volunteers. That is just asking for a wage & hour lawsuit. Maybe Landmark plans on arguing that getting to attend the seminar for free is compensation for the “volunteer’s” time. I would be surprised if that held up. Essentially the only legitimate way for a for-profit company to have an unpaid worker is to have an internship that provides course credit through an academic institution. [/QUOTE] These aren’t the types of people who would bring suit though. They’re wide, glossed over eyes are too much in awe of the speaker. THey’re convinced that this Landmark is the answer to all the world’s woes and they truly believe that they are doing good by helping this process along for free. Many of these volunteers spend an unbelievable amount of time on this project…not only volunteering for hours and hours a week, but simultaneously taking classes, taking on other Landmark projects, and doing homework. ---
**Author:** ![CeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/46 "2007-04-19T19:02:05Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] Do you have a cite for that **from** AA? You know that AA is stricktly a non-profit volunteer organization, right? People attend one hour meetings and go their merry way. Besides there’s no comparison between AA and Landmark. Different animal. [/QUOTE] I’m having trouble finding the cite directly FROM AA. I believe their study was done around 1989. You can find the study referred to all over the place, such as here: > **[AA's role in society - More negative than positive?](https://www.peele.net/faq/aarole.html)** Where Stanton Peele mentions “In absolute numbers quite a few people have benefited from AA. However, in terms of percentages of those exposed to AA, the number helped by AA is small — about 5% remain in AA as long as a year, according to AA’s own surveys.” And also this: “The two randomized studies in which AA treatment was assigned found AA to yield worse outcomes than other forms of treatment — or no treatment at all. (See Brandsma et al., The Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism: A Review and Comparative Study, Baltimore: University Park Press, 1980; Ditman et al., “A controlled study on the use of court probation for drunk arrests,” American Journal of Psychiatry, 124:160-163, 1967.) But Walsh et al. (“A randomized trial of treatment options for alcohol-abusing workers,” The New England Journal of Medicine, 325:775-782, 1991) allowed alcoholics limited choices, and those who chose AA still did worst (about as bad as those assigned to AA).” I’ll look some more for the actual study…I do know this is off topic, but someone DID bring up effectiveness of AA. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/47 "2007-04-19T19:08:09Z")
[QUOTE=Harriet the Spry] I know nothing about Landmark, but do call BS on for-profit companies having volunteers. That is just asking for a wage & hour lawsuit. Maybe Landmark plans on arguing that getting to attend the seminar for free is compensation for the “volunteer’s” time. I would be surprised if that held up. Essentially the only legitimate way for a for-profit company to have an unpaid worker is to have an internship that provides course credit through an academic institution. [/QUOTE] You’re right, they have indeed been sued for this issue. An outline of the cases can be found at the wikipedia site [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Education_litigation#United_States_of_America) ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/48 "2007-04-20T04:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] Do you have a cite for that **from** AA? You know that AA is stricktly a non-profit volunteer organization, right? People attend one hour meetings and go their merry way. Besides there’s no comparison between AA and Landmark. Different animal. [/QUOTE] AA and Landmark aren’t that different. Both require a great deal of dedication and self-examination, not to mention a reliance on peer pressure to conform to a desired behavior. The chief difference is that Landmark sessions are facilitated, last longer and are vastly more expensive. That said, many people in AA tend to take it further than just meetings. They volunteer their time to meetings and other activities at various levels. Like Landmark, some people are paid, but the majority aren’t. When I was in AA, it was not uncommon for some members to spend upwards of ten to 20 hours a week volunteering for various AA-related activities, and this time did not always include meetings. As for AA-conducted research, well, lotsa luck. According to their [website](http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/en_information_aa.cfm?PageID=10), they do not conduct any kind of research, nor do they do any sort of follow-up with members. Because AA is, by definition, anonymous, there are no records kept aside from lists maintained by individual groups (which may be out of date), and since data are self-reported, any success is defined by the member and is generally attributed to AA whether that’s the case or not. The best they can do is a periodic survey, which can be found [here](http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/en_pdfs/p-48_04survey.pdf). I think this is what **CeilingWhacks** was referring to. It’s a PDF, but not a very large one. There are a lot of problems with their survey data; for one, the people most likely to respond are the ones most likely to report positive experiences. Since there are no records with which to correlate survey data, and since surveys are completely anonymous, anyone can say anything. You basically have to take AA at its word, and with numbers this squirrelly, you really can’t. Robin ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/49 "2007-04-20T20:15:37Z")
I responded to a similar question so long ago now that the thread is lost in the mists of antiquity (or at any rate, it’s in the archive, where the links to it from threads that are still active don’t work and you can’t search for it). But my experience and take on it were very similar to WhyNot’s. I personally got a lot out of it, as they offer a lot of valuable insights and strategies for living. They’ve combined them with techniques of influence and persuasion (many of them the same ones used by interrogators, psych-ops personnel, advertisers and marketers, and religious groups) and packaged them together in an effective bundle. Yeah, I’m aware of how loaded that last sentence is, and that was deliberate. As others have pointed out, there’s very little in the content provided in the Landmark Forum that’s revolutionary or startling – it’s mostly stuff that, at some level, you already know. So why does it have the impact it does? It’s not just the long hours and fatigue and hunger and all that, though those do have an effect. A lot of it is the creation of a sense of acceptance and intimacy among the participants. You see all these other people talk about very painful, emotional, or difficult topics, and while the Forum leaders won’t hesitate to call “bullshit” on what’s said, they carefully do so in a way that’s accepting of the person while rejecting their “story”. We’re nearly all hardwired in ways that make us predisposed to like and identify with others with whom we have shared some kind of intimacy, and the topics brought up in the Forum very often are things the participants have only discussed with the people closest to them, if at all. And suddenly here’s this whole group of people who are willing to listen to you and accept you and not attack or ridicule you. This establishes connections between the participants that might take years to accomplish, if at all, outside that context. A lot of this isn’t even conscious – the emotional intimacy that gets established kicks off all kinds of physiological changes (release of oxytocin, etc.) that creates a feedback loop that reinforces all of this. Once you begin to identify with the group, then it’s almost shockingly easy to be led down whatever path the group is on – the acceptance and approval of the group becomes extremely important, and going along seems better than disagreeing or being contentious and risking the loss of their acceptance and the good feelings that it brings. This is one of the main reasons why isolation is important. It’s also critical to get people agreeing to things. It almost doesn’t matter what it is, but it does matter that you get people to expressly say yes to things. Once you’re doing that, it’s easier to get them to accept and agree to the fundamental premises that the rest of the ideas are based on. If people begin to rethink that agreement later, pointing out that they’ve already agreed on the premises, and that the conclusions logically follow from them. The effectiveness of this type of technique has been pretty conclusively proved experimentally. One of the most effective bits is the insistence that things don’t inherently “mean” anything – that whatever meaning we ascribe to them is self-generated, that things mean what we say they mean, and our interpretation of events is just that – our own interpretation. This is useful for helping you understand that generally people aren’t out to get you, that they don’t “mean” something insidious by everything they say, and that how you choose to interpret things effectively becomes reality for you. All quite true, quite helpful, and it’s surprising how few people actually understand and live that. This set of ideas is, however, also useful for deflecting criticism – anything you might criticize about the Forum or Landmark or anything to do with it is simply “your interpretation”, not what actually happened. And the things that they in fact actually do or say are all carefully crafted to stop short of crossing any lines of responsibility – if there’s an implication that you should browbeat your acquaintances into coming to your Forum “graduation” and being subjected to a sales pitch, well, that’s your interpretation – what they said is that you’re encouraged to invite others so that they can see how it has affected you and hear from others what it’s all about. Once all of that kicks in, it’s very easy for the leader to steer the group toward the conclusions he/she wants to arrive at – the desire to please the leader takes hold of nearly everyone in the room, and they provide more and more of the type of “sharing” and comments that they think the leader wants. Like any other techniques for persuasion, they can be used for good ends or bad. Most people I know who’ve done the Landmark Forum consider their lives better for it, myself included. On the other hand, the same techniques that help you reconsider how you go about living are also applied to getting you to take more courses and sign up more people for the Forum and the other courses, and it’s natural to regard anything self-serving like that as suspicious, particular when it employs many of the same techniques as cults, albeit to different ends. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/50 "2007-04-20T20:19:32Z")
Very, extremely, wonderfully well-said, **rackensack**. There’s nothing there I disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/51 "2007-04-20T21:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > AA and Landmark aren’t that different. Both require a great deal of dedication and self-examination, not to mention a reliance on peer pressure to conform to a desired behavior. The chief difference is that Landmark sessions are facilitated, last longer and are vastly more expensive. I’m very familiar with AA and that was an excellent post **Robin** , thanks. If people find Landmark a positive experience that’s great. I knew people in the past involved with est and that’s why I was curious. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/52 "2010-09-02T19:23:27Z")
I have a couple of friends who are Landmark graduates (converts? evangalists?) and while I’d never heard much about it, I’m glad it’s helping them but also couldn’t help but think it all sounded a little…fishy. This thread has helped provide perspective from both sides so while I know it’s a zombie, I’d like to see who else might have any additional experiences they’d like to share… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/53 "2010-09-02T20:25:45Z")
I never took any Landmark stuff, but my wife did before we were married, and my opinion of it matches what WhyNot and rackensack said. General self-help stuff delivered with a hard-sell, accompanied by a hard-sell for further classes and volunteer work. ---
**Author:** ![MJWoodgee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@MJWoodgee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MJWoodgee)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/54 "2012-05-21T02:03:53Z")
1. 90mins for dinner break with 30 min breaks every 2.5-3 hrs ??? That’s a fact 2. The Landmark Forum can be hard going when traditional morals and values don’t often align with what is being proposed in the course. In my opion that traditional stuff is mostly what is the problem in the world 3. The Landmark Forum starts 9am and finishes approx 10pm = 11 hrs 4. I’ve never seen anyone abused in the courses though I have often seen people wake up to their crap with great coaching and getting a brand new future > [@CeilingWhacks](#): > > As far as I can tell from the research there is no evidence that 12-step programs work better than no treatment at all. This is proven by AA’s own research. > > As for Landmark Forum, it’s not the basically harmless message gathered from mulitiple philosophies and techniques for having a better life that is the problem. It’s the means by which that message is hammered into the student. > > I’ve done the Landmark Forum within the last year. I barely made it through the class, which utilizes 15 hour days, with about an hour and a half of breaks total (during which you’re expected to do “homework”). All class rooms are windowless and feel “airless” possibly due to the fact that there’s less than an inch between you and your nearest neighbors. > > Additionally, WAY too much of those 15 hour days is taken up with a very hard sales pitch that gets REALLY annoying when you’d rather be having a snack or taking a nap. I mean, it’s annoying anyway. But if you’re there to use your time to better yourself, you tend to get REALLY aggravated with this. > > People were kicked out of my class for questioning the instructor…he belittled them, shouted at them, and called them names before tehy were asked to leave. It may sound like you get to “share” but you’d darn well better be sharing within the boundaries of the group’s newly learned language and acceptable topics or you will be thrown out without a refund. > > Landmark Education is also the only non-profit company in this country that has VOLUNTEERS. That’s right…people volunteer to stand around and monitor attendees while the speaker and the rest of the company rakes in the dough. > > And while it may indeed be a cheap alternative when comparied to scientology, it’s not cheap by most people’s standards…$400 for the forum, $800 (I think) for the advanced course and others that you will be hounded to sign up for for upwards of $1000. Not to mention the cost in time, friends, and other things you could be doing. > > If they’d publish a book, I’d buy it. The common sense hints about how to have a more successful life can come in handy. If I had to sit through another 45+ hour weekend to have the stuff pounded into my head, I’d stick fork in my eye. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/55 "2012-05-21T23:13:50Z")
The methods of getting people are enough for me to move on. I don’t even like churches that try to do that crap. There is obvious emotional manipulation going on. It’s still exploiting the same techniques that cults do, so it’s irrelevant how much it helps people. ---
**Author:** ![BSdetector](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8baadc/32.png) [@BSdetector](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BSdetector)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/56 "2013-02-07T19:56:50Z")
To say the least, it is highly suspicious that (1) the “independent research page” contains not a single external link, and that (2) while a few web searches easily reveals external links discrediting some of those sources, many searches fail to identify external links substantiating even one. It appears that none of the quoted material can be found on any external link. > [@WhyNot](#): > > No, I get the last word. 'Cause I did find the independent research page. 😉 [Linky.](http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=116) > > The Yankelovich (DYG, Inc.) Study: Analysis of The Landmark Forum and Its Benefits > “More than seven out of 10 people found The Landmark Forum to be one of their lives’ most rewarding experiences…” Nationally recognized social scientist and public opinion analyst Dan Yankelovich, DYG Inc.'s chairman, conducted this study. The study addresses profiles of participants in The Landmark Forum, their satisfaction levels, and the value they reported. > > The Talent Foundation Study: A Shortcut to Motivated and Adaptive Workforces > “Individuals surveyed showed significantly higher levels of motivation, self-esteem, and confidence…” The Talent Foundation, a global organization that provides innovative methods for the development of talent in the workplace, published a study on The Landmark Forum. This study, conducted within accepted scientific guidelines, validates the results that the Landmark technology produces. > > The IMC, Inc. Report: Evaluations of Landmark Education’s Programs > “Participants gave The Landmark Forum extremely high ratings in important categories. Nine out of 10 participants expressed strong satisfaction with the value they received from The Landmark Forum.” > > The Harris Survey: Money: The Impact of Landmark’s Programs on Participants’ Income Levels > Participants reported that Landmark’s programs had a positive impact on their relationship with money in key areas such as significant increased income, less anxiety about money, and greater effectiveness in managing their finances. > > Robert Marzano Study: A New Paradigm for Educational Change > “The ultimate proof of the effectiveness of the seminar is the extent to which participants consider new, more effective paradigms…” Robert Marzano, a Deputy Director with the Educational Laboratory is widely recognized as an expert in critical thinking and curriculum design. This study explores the nature of the change process and the impact of change in business and education. > > A University of Southern California Case Study: Transforming the Network of Conversations in BHP New Zealand Steel > “Leaders in BHP New Zealand Steel assert that LEBD’s [Landmark’s] engagement… galvanized the workforce…” The University of Southern California Marshall Business School published a case study that focuses on the impact of Landmark Education Business Development’s work at BHP New Zealand Steel. > > A Harvard Business School Case Study: Landmark Education Corporation: Selling a Paradigm Shift > “LEC’s technology… is intended to provide individuals and organizations with an insight into how to become more effective…” Harvard Business School published a case study that focuses on the history, curriculum, and results of Landmark Education’s programs. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434/57 "2013-02-08T01:28:14Z")
> [@BSdetector](#): > > To say the least, it is highly suspicious that (1) the “independent research page” contains not a single external link, and that (2) while a few web searches easily reveals external links discrediting some of those sources, many searches fail to identify external links substantiating even one. It appears that none of the quoted material can be found on any external link. I don’t have a dog in this fight but possibly the fact that you are responding to a post that is almost 6 years old is the reason for link failures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-actually-happens-in-the-landmark-forum-seminars/400434.md?page=2)