What actually happens when wine breathes?

[squeegee]

On review, I do agree that the temperature of a wine makes a great deal of difference in taste. For example, many folks chill chardonnay to fridge temperatures, which is far too cool (for me) to taste flavor of the wine. I prefer chardonnay to be cool, not truly chilled.

I stand by my comment that there can be a very noticable difference in red wine taste between a “breathed” and non-breathed red wine of the appropriate type at the same temperature.

[squeegee]

Bah, why do I bother.

e-logic, please try a home chemistry experiment with two suitable quality bottles of strong red wine, one “breathed”, one not, and taste the difference. When come back, bring knowledge, not assertions.

[Wallenstein]

@squeegee

Bah, why do I bother.

e-logic, please try a home chemistry experiment with two suitable quality bottles of strong red wine, one “breathed”, one not, and taste the difference. When come back, bring knowledge, not assertions.

So the fact that you thought you could tell the difference between the two constitutes proof does it…? Unless you can confidently eliminate factors 1) and 2) above, as well as the supher dioxide suggestion, it’s not really much to work with.

It sounds like you’d make a fortune in the wine industry, as a recent experiment commissioned by Decanter* magazine found that a group of the UK’s top wine experts were unable tell with any sort of confidence the difference between wines which were decanted minutes before tasting, hours before tasting, or simply popped and immediately poured.

*leading wine journal

[squeegee]

Another assertion. When come back, bring cite.

[Wallenstein]

@squeegee

Another assertion. When come back, bring cite.

I told you… it was in Decanter magazine. I’ve not got all the back issues with me (!) but if you give them a call they’ll be able to let you know which issue it was in.

I took the phrasing from this site: Wine Lovers' Page/Randy's World

but I read the article a while ago.

When come back, don’t be a spanner (please) - I’m trying to help, if you don’t want to listen that’s fine but that doesn’t mean your claims are true.

[squeegee]

And, to answer your question: no, of course I don’t offer my experience as “proof”. As I saidb “I stand by my statement”, in other words, that’s my understanding.

I do agree that your study may be a proof of some sort. It does sound interesting. I’ve googled for it, it doesn’t seem to be available. Please cite.

[Wallenstein]

Well, in the absence of the Decanter article:

From Top 10 Wine Myths Debunked - WinePros

MYTH: Wines taste better when allowed to “breathe” and get “smoother” the longer they are open.

IMPLICATION: All wine should have the cork removed long before consumption and the longer the better.

ORIGIN: The only substance other than grapes traditionally added to make wine is sulfur, which prevents the wine from oxidizing (spoiling). In the traditional application of sulfur, experience was often more of a factor than science and excess frequently left wines stinking of sulfur dioxide (burnt match), hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg), or mercaptan (skunk). In young wines, these stenches often are volatile and not chemically bound in solution, thus some aeration can alleviate the problem. If not removed prior to bottling, however, the sulfur compounds can bind over time with other elements and become harder if not impossible to remove. Another basis for breathing is that wine seems to get “smoother” over the course of a meal or overnight.

REALITY: Simply removing the cork to allow the wine to “breathe” has no effect whatsoever.

APPLICATION: The waiter, sommelier, or “expert” is wasting your time by simply removing the cork without decanting the bottle. It has been scientifically proven that the narrow space of the bottle neck where the wine can contact air is inadequate to produce any change within a period of even 24 hours, let alone a few minutes.

MY CONTENTIONS: I first became suspect of the value of “breathing” in 1974, when, in wine appreciation classes, we drank two different bottles of 1899 (not a misprint) Sierra Madre Zinfandel. These 75-year-old bottles were throwing a very silty sediment and so we decanted them to remove it. The first bottle had a wonderful, heady, cigar-box nose when we pulled the cork, but by the end of the 30 seconds or so we took to decant it, the aroma had almost entirely vanished. So, when we opened the second bottle, we beckoned everyone gather around the decanting table to enjoy the fleeting sensation.

Modern methods of wine hygiene and low-sulfur production techniques have greatly reduced the occurrence of sulfur-compound stinks in wine, rendering aeration at serving moot. The phenomenon of wines “changing” over the course of a dinner to become perceptively “smoother” is a function more of physiology than chemistry. In the time window of one or two hours during which it is consumed, the wine does not change so much as the wine taster changes. That first taste of wine includes the very slightly painful sensations of heat from the alcohols and pucker from the acids and tannins. As the wine is consumed, not only does the palate adapt, becoming more tolerant and less sensitive to these stimuli, but the tastebuds and brain also become more and more anesthetized from the effects of ethanol. As the initial shock dissipates, the taster becomes aware of more subtle complexities. The wine seems to taste smoother and more complex, when it is in fact the taster’s sensitivities that undergo the most rapid and greatest degree of change. (see Taste: A User’s Manual)

As far as (especially) big red wines tasting smoother the day after opening, I suspect most of the smoothness comes from the very slight evaporation and reduction in ethanol, the most volatile component, but this at the expense of the aromas which have dissipated. Before you argue against this point, try an experiment (with no deviation or prejudice). It requires two bottles of the same wine, preferably from the same case, two identical decanters, masking tape, a pen, and an assistant (although this exercise is more instructive and fun with additional tasters). The morning of your tasting, open and decant one bottle. Do not open the other bottle. Out of sight, the assistant uses the pen and masking tape to mark each bottle and its corresponding decanter (with a random mark, such as X and O) to keep track. Several hours later, but immediately before tasting and out of sight of the taster(s), he decants the second bottle. The wines are then immediately poured “blind” for the tasters to decide which bottle (decanter) smells and tastes best. Most of the time, the just-opened bottle wins. The results, furthermore, will be consistent, whether using young or aged wines, whether white or red, and whether the tasters are experienced or not.

MY ADVICE: If you truly place great value in allowing your wines to aerate, simply pulling corks won’t do it. Decant the wine, regardless of an absence of sediment. However, the older the bottle of wine, the more brief the aroma window, so gather your friends around to appreciate the fragrances as you decant to remove any sediment and then pour that wine at once!

(Post Script: the unpleasant, musty smell that comes from the presence of TCA, often referred to as “corkiness”, unfortunately will not dissipate, no matter how long the wine is open, nor how violent the decanting.)

I accept your challenge to do the test myself (in the interests of science of course) - it’s 5.50am here at the moment, but far be it from me to stand in the way of the fight against ignorance.

Liquid breakfast here we come…

[Wallenstein]

Sorry, one more…

This is from Ann C. Noble, PhD., Professor of Viticulture and Enology in the College of Agricultural & Environmental Sciences at the University of California at Davis

Question: Wine connoisseurs say that many wines should breathe before you drink them. Why is that?

Well, lets correct it. Many wine experts say that, and many other experts disagree with them. Each wine is different, and I think there are four scenarios. One, You could blow off a defect. If it?s a younger wine and it has an off-odor, very often there?s a very little bit of the volatile sulfur compound defect hydrogen sulfide, which is like rotten eggs. And if you open it up, that goes away very, very quickly. So that?s a good reason to open something to breathe.

Two, on the other hand, you could lose some really good things because the wine is so old. In older wine, if you open it up early you may lose a lot of the things that it had going for it?the aromas. And that happens?not always, just sometimes.

The third one is nothing happens.

And the fourth one is, it is one of those younger reds that actually does seem to have a development occur, and by that I mean the aroma seems to change by having, you know, being poured, fifteen minutes ahead of time. Sometimes if you open it up and let it breathe, just sometimes, it does actually seem to help the aroma develop. “Seems to” is the operative phrase here. It?s only for certain red wines in which that happens. And just opening the bottle isn?t going to do it. Youve got to open the bottle and decant it to get enough air in there.

Letting it breathe in the bottle is not going to do very much for it because there?s very little exchange with the environment, whereas if you pour into a glass or a decanter, you are aerating it, meaning that you?re getting oxygen in there, and youre splashing it, so some of these volatile compounds will go away more quickly. Youre going to have more of an effect than if you just pull the cork and let it sit there.

So in some cases it makes a very positive difference, and in other cases, actually, with older wines, it can make a negative difference. However those four scenarios cant be predicted ahead of time, and except for the volatiles blowing off, I cant give you a chemical reason.

Now, about the volatiles blowing off: How this happens is, if you have these very volatile defects, that means they are compounds that are probably potent?that is, you can smell them at very low concentrations?and also they happen to have what we call a “very low boiling point.” That means they turn from liquid into gas, and therefore, theyre in the air above the wine and they will go away very quickly. And so when that happens, you lose that smell very quickly. It?s almost exclusively the aroma that is affected. The taste should be unaffected. There?s one or two people that are on a bandwagon, that if you open up a red wine and shake it or something like that, that you can affect its perception of astringency, but I cant believe it, and in my research, I don?t think it?s possible.

[squeegee]

e-logic -

First of all, I’m the wrong person to be carrying the “breathe” banner here. I’m speaking from narrow experience, not strong conviction. My experience is that a fairly narrow selection of strong reds benefit from breathing. Certainly not all of them. A $9 bottle of Woodbridge doesn’t change much. A $35 bottle of whatever may or may not. I have not done any scientific testing on this point, and I’m not aware of anyone who has (I said, wishing your Decanter cite were available ). I am not a wine snob, but a joe blow who lives withing shouting distance of Napa and this stuff rubs off. I packed away some reds, tried breathing them, and it works. But only for some strong, young reds, certainly not all. Breathing a white zin would be silly, I think we’d all agree.

Secondly, your cites seem a bit less rigid in support of your point than I think you’re championing. In Cite #1, the interviewee cites a hypothetical test where both bottles of wine are decanted, but one sets longer. This is less than convincing. And his recommendation is:

If you truly place great value in allowing your wines to aerate, simply pulling corks won’t do it. Decant the wine, regardless of an absence of sediment. However, the older the bottle of wine, the more brief the aroma window, so gather your friends around to appreciate the fragrances as you decant to remove any sediment and then pour that wine at once!

– which seems not at all invariant with what other people in this thread recommended.

As for Cite #2, we get this:

And the fourth one is, it is one of those younger reds that actually does seem to have a development occur, and by that I mean the aroma seems to change by having, you know, being poured, fifteen minutes ahead of time. Sometimes if you open it up and let it breathe, just sometimes, it does actually seem to help the aroma develop. “Seems to” is the operative phrase here. It?s only for certain red wines in which that happens. And just opening the bottle isn?t going to do it. Youve got to open the bottle and decant it to get enough air in there.

This seems to be exactly mine and, I think, other’s experience – some strong, young red wines benefit from breathing. More mature or less complex wines do not. What’s the problem?

[squeegee]

And I do hope you have a very nice breakfast.

[the_first_supraliminal]

@Ethilrist

the first supraliminal
**NoPretentiousCodename, Dr. Lao **Thanks. Guess the reason I don’t find any difference is that I don’t drink cheap wines.

:dubious:

You’re welcome.

If I didn’t thank you, do you suppose it might be because you gave the wrong answer? Clearly you didn’t do any research before you gave me an opinion.
That’s not unusal, as can be seen by so many of the others who followed you. They clearly didn’t bother to read the serious answers provided by **NoPretentiousCodename and Dr. Lao **

In fact you, like many of the others, came to a GQ thread that had more actual researched information than their suppositons or home experience, and yet learnded nothing, and went home with their opinions unchanged. That’s not a sound way to approach GQ. The goal is fighting ignorance.

[HMS_Irruncible]

I notice that all the cites presented seem to deal primarily with the practice of “breathing” the wine via uncorking the bottle. They note, correctly, that this isn’t going to have much effect. How could it, with minimal exposure of the wine to the air?

All of the cites do acknowledge the extremely unsavory effect of sulfur compounds.

I think the conclusion to be drawn here is that breathing the wine in an uncorked bottle is probably useless, but breathing the wine in a wide-mouthed container probably aids in allowing the offgassing of the sulfur compounds generated during fermentation.

I have observed this myself enough times to be convinced that it’s worthwhile to expose the wine to air in a wide-mouthed container for 15-20 minutes before drinking.

[Ethilrist]

@the first supraliminal

If I didn’t thank you, do you suppose it might be because you gave the wrong answer?

e-logic’s last post supported part of my post, which is that adding oxygen improves the flavor. Sorry I didn’t have a cite.

[Mathochist]

@e-logic

if the goal was to get air to the wine you’d see waitors in posh restuarants shaking the stuff in a cocktail-shaker; the fact that they don’t suggests that it’s not that important…

That’s because you swirl (some people actually do shake) in the glass yourself…