# What advantages would blue America have in a civil war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384 "2019-03-01T16:56:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/21 "2019-03-01T19:11:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But many blue cities have no access to the ocean whatsoever (Denver, for instance.) They would run out of food and it would be the blues who have to go out into the countryside for food, not vice versa. What I’m saying is that there _wouldn’t be a war_ - as in, there _can’t_ be a war. Red America, as an organization that is capable of declaring and making war, doesn’t exist. What you’re calling “Red America” is actually a bunch of dudes who are well equipped to hold off small numbers of poorly-equipped civilian attackers who come to them and attack them on their home ground, but who aren’t even slightly capable of mustering a significant military attack on a distant location. (Note that I’m assuming that they don’t have the US military on their side - and that they’re not raiding equipment from US military bases, since that _definitely_ wouldn’t get the US military on their side.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/22 "2019-03-01T19:11:05Z")
There’s far too much stereotyping going here. Cities aren’t all-blue fortresses (and rural areas aren’t all red either). [22.5% of Los Angeles County voted for President Trump](https://www.lavote.net/election-results#year=2016&election=3496). [22% of NYC voted for President Trump](https://www.elections.ny.gov/NYSBOE/elections/2016/General/2016President.pdf). Think about that for a minute: that’s one out of every four or five people. They wouldn’t have to worry about yokels from the Central Valley or upstate coming in and raiding them, they’d have to worry about the neighbor down the street, or the neighborhood on the other side of the tracks. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/23 "2019-03-01T19:12:26Z")
Whichever side can get the U.S. military behind them. I don’t see that fracturing as easily as in the first civil war. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/24 "2019-03-01T19:13:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d love to see a cite from either one of you on this. Here’s what I see (from [the NYT 2016 exit polls](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html)): HRC won voters making less than $50k. DJT won every income category making $50k+. DJT’s rich constituents don’t live in Red America. ---
**Author:** ![Chopsticks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cab0a1/32.png) [@Chopsticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopsticks)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/25 "2019-03-01T19:18:18Z")
Oil refineries, ammunition factories, power plants, logistics centers. All either urban/suburban, or require parts and technical expertise that are mostly from urban - especially any parts or raw materials from overseas. No farm equipment, no working transport infrastructure, no weapons once all ammo used up, no electricity, no phone service, no email. I don’t think we’d be at risk no matter how many newly-created Amish rebelled. Plus it might be expensive to pay USPS or UPS to ship foodstuffs into cities by air & sea, but it is possible (probably require rationing tho) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/26 "2019-03-01T19:22:08Z")
> [@Chopsticks](#): > > … no weapons once all ammo used up… There are many billions of rounds of small-arms ammunition squirreled away in private hands in America. I don’t think waiting for “once all ammo used up” is a viable strategy. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/27 "2019-03-01T19:24:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d love to see a cite from either one of you on this. Here’s what I see (from [the NYT 2016 exit polls](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html)): HRC won voters making less than $50k. DJT won every income category making $50k+. I was making the hypothetical division as a blue state/red state sort of thing. However, if all the DJT voters are going to migrate and group-up against the HRC voters, then I’ll admit I need more research/thought put into my answer. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/28 "2019-03-01T19:25:58Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Whichever side can get the U.S. military behind them. I don’t see that fracturing as easily as in the first civil war. I don’t see them breaking from the US government, which means that you end up with the US government either declaring literal war on the farmlands, or declaring literal war on the cities (presumably excluding DC). While I wouldn’t be surprised to hear about a Trump Tweet ordering such an action, I have a hard to believing that nobody underneath him would kibosh the idea of carpet-bombing non-aggressive American civilians - be they rural _or_ urban. Regardless of the political affiliation of the soldiers in question. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/29 "2019-03-01T19:26:01Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > I was making the hypothetical division as a blue state/red state sort of thing. However, if all the DJT voters are going to migrate and group-up against the HRC voters, then I’ll admit I need more research/thought put into my answer. Why would they want to “group-up”? Did the Hutus “migrate and group-up” before slaughtering the Tutsis? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/30 "2019-03-01T19:31:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Why would they want to “group-up”? Did the Hutus “migrate and group-up” before slaughtering the Tutsis? I do have to concede that if they somehow managed to miraculously plan and coordinate it without anybody catching wind and cutting it off at the knees, if everyone with a slightly conservative bent secretly loaded up their guns and then simultaneously went out and slaughtered every non-conservative man woman and child they could find, it would be less “what advantages would Blue America have” and more “oh my god, the horror, the horror.” I’d be hesitant to call that a war, though - it’d be over in hours. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/31 "2019-03-01T19:35:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But many blue cities have no access to the ocean whatsoever (Denver, for instance.) They would run out of food and it would be the blues who have to go out into the countryside for food, not vice versa. The technology to preserve and store food past harvest and to grow another another harvest the next year for virtually everyone in the United States is blue state dependent. Cities can quickly acquire and preserve vast supplies of food and other supplies needed to maintain something near our current living standards. Rural areas descend into 19th century levels fast when there’s a war. I saw that happen in the former Yugoslavia. No matter how much red staters wax nostalgic over their pioneer ancestors they don’t want to live like them. The first week without stable insulin supplies and red state citizens would be begging to be refugees in the blue areas. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/32 "2019-03-01T19:35:14Z")
I’m thinking that if an all out war started, the Red would probably quite handily win that war. If the armies split along those same lines that is. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/33 "2019-03-01T19:40:55Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Our rural areas could not keep the technology level needed for modern agriculture they currently have without imported materials and products. And is there anywhere in the United States that has cobalt mines? A good navel blockade would starve flyover country before the coasts starting having problems. Lol. The military and law enforcement are primarily composed of which group again? I’ll give you a clue. It’s not the Antifa side. To answer the question in the OP, the blue side would have the advantage of the traditional instruments of mass media. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/34 "2019-03-01T19:41:27Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > … Cities can quickly acquire and preserve vast supplies of food and other supplies needed to maintain something near our current living standards. … What do you mean by this? I suspect a real civil war would quickly see power outages and compromised water supplies for most people on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/35 "2019-03-01T19:44:22Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d love to see a cite from either one of you on this. Here’s what I see (from [the NYT 2016 exit polls](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html)): HRC won voters making less than $50k. DJT won every income category making $50k+. They make the extrapolation that because a particular state is in the so-called blue colum that every dollar or unit of production is therefore a “blue” dollar or unit of production. If the unit being summed were /individual instead of /colorstate the conclusion would be different. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/36 "2019-03-01T19:44:36Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I’m thinking that if an all out war started, the Red would probably quite handily win that war. If the armies split along those same lines that is. I’m thinking that if the army gets involved in any capacity then everything else becomes instantly irrelevant. Fantasies aside rural folk wouldn’t last ten minutes against a serious military attack (which probably would be death from above rather than something they can shoot back at), and cities are basically large stationary targets if one is in the ‘reduce it to rubble and don’t worry about the war crimes’ mood. Things get a bit interesting if you split the army and set it against itself, but one side or the other will win soon enough and everybody else will go back to being irrelevant again. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/37 "2019-03-01T19:48:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There are a number of online fantasies on the Internet that go like this: If Blue America and Red America go to war, the blues are mostly urban while the reds are rural, and the rural areas is where the farmland is, and red Americans own more guns, and have more experience with fishing, hunting, etc. while the big cities would soon starve; ergo, Red America will win. > It does seem that from a logistics standpoint urban folks would be at a big disadvantage - a lot more mouths to feed than there is food nearby - but I suspect such fantasies are grossly oversimplified. The blues would have a numerical advantage and also 20% of Democrats own guns. Well, let’s stop right here: None of this makes a lick of sense. 1. Gun experience: The number of soldiers available to either side is what it is, and given the nature of modern warfare, that’s what you’re going to get. The war would be just unbelievably bloody even if you avoided the use of nuclear weapons, and would probably end quickly. If my some miracle it DIDN’T end quickly, new recruits would be taught to use rifles. It really does not take very long to learn to effectively use an M-4. Previous experience with your hunting rifle or Glock isn’t an advantage, you still have to do boot camp. 1. There is rather a lot of food available to the blue states, and food can simply be bought from overseas. Again, the war would end quickly, anyway. The extent to which red states are better at farming is - well, it’s a silly idea. The most agriculturally productive state in the Union is California. Minnesota and Illinois are in the top ten and I don’t see the red staters holding Wisconsin for long. New York has farms. I mean, come on. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/38 "2019-03-01T19:55:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, let’s stop right here: None of this makes a lick of sense. > > 1. Gun experience: The number of soldiers available to either side is what it is, and given the nature of modern warfare, that’s what you’re going to get. The war would be just unbelievably bloody even if you avoided the use of nuclear weapons, and would probably end quickly. > > If my some miracle it DIDN’T end quickly, new recruits would be taught to use rifles. It really does not take very long to learn to effectively use an M-4. Previous experience with your hunting rifle or Glock isn’t an advantage, you still have to do boot camp. > > 1. There is rather a lot of food available to the blue states, and food can simply be bought from overseas. Again, the war would end quickly, anyway. > > The extent to which red states are better at farming is - well, it’s a silly idea. The most agriculturally productive state in the Union is California. Minnesota and Illinois are in the top ten and I don’t see the red staters holding Wisconsin for long. New York has farms. I mean, come on. Looking at red vs blue at the state level is tremendously misleading. ---
**Author:** ![RandomNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RandomNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomNerd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/39 "2019-03-01T20:05:37Z")
What would really happen is the vast majority of people will say ‘ok that is enough’ and lock up the red gun nuts that equate their guns with their genitals. Everyone will be sick of the Republican behavior that is sickening in how it betrays this country thru bad policy and outright treason with foreign powers. The military will ‘side’ with the rule of law and rather than massacre grandma will assist in rounding up the yahoos who honestly want a race war and violence rather than take a loss on their partisan politics. Within a couple weeks the jails will be filled up and life will return to normal with a lot of Trump nuts out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384/40 "2019-03-01T20:08:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do you mean by this? I suspect a real civil war would quickly see power outages and compromised water supplies for most people on both sides. Cities mean concentrated resources in a place that’s easier to defend than the countryside around them. Cities have the infrastructure to organize quickly and populations that are at least used to the idea of working together to survive. Not to mention usually stockpiles of medicine and emergency gear. Look at how long places like Vukovar and Sarajevo held on vs. the countryside around them. Red Dawn and Rambo were not realistic. I’ve seen farmers with AK-47s go up against tanks. It’s not pretty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-advantages-would-blue-america-have-in-a-civil-war/830384.md?page=3)