# What all major divisions are there among people in the middle east/north africa & south asia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 17, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960 "2014-06-17T03:32:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/1 "2014-06-17T03:32:22Z")
The fighting in Iraq made me curious about this. I know there are divisions between Sunni muslims and Shi’ite muslims, as well as tensions between muslims and non-muslims (Jews, Christians, Hindu, etc) Is nationalism a real issue in these regions? Do people identify as Pakistani or Iraqi or do they feel the borders were drawn by imperialists and not important? Are the Kurds a religious group or an ethnic group? What are the ethnic tensions? I heard that Bin Laden had problems when he was in Afghanistan because he was Arab, and Arabs were looked down upon in Afghanistan. How big is the divide among secularists and theocrats in that area? Or does it vary too much to say (Egypt could be totally different from Iran, etc)? What about racial divisions? I thought that was an issue in Sudan between southern Sudan vs northern. Do people get upset about skin color, if so how? Is tribalism and people identifying with certain cities a big issue for the entire area, or just parts of it? It was my understanding that Saddam Hussein placed people from his hometown of Tikrit into powerful positions due to loyalty. Do people have city or tribal rivalries? Are there major divisions within Sunni or Shi’ite muslims or is that the main division? Are there major philosophical divides (pan-arabism, Islamism, modernism, etc) on how to deal with the problems in the region? So you’ve got tensions due to: Muslim vs non-muslims Muslim sects against each other Nationalism Tribalism Ethnicity Theocrats vs secularists Racial tensions Is that accurate? Are they all independent factors? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/2 "2014-06-17T03:36:56Z")
There is also the tensions between the rich and the poor, men and women, young and old, educated and uneducated. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/3 "2014-06-17T04:01:26Z")
Okay, here’s the broad picture. There’s a general divide in the Middle East between the Turks and the Arabs. The Arabs were the original Muslims and when the conquered neighbouring territories in the eight century they “arabified” the local cultures. So nowadays, places like Egypt, North Africa, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq are broadly considered Arabic. The Turks came out of Central Asia. They’re basically Turkey and all of the countries that end in Stan. They converted to Islam but they didn’t adopt Arabic culture or language. So while both Turks and Arabs are Sunnis, there’s an ethnic divide. And the Ottoman Empire was run by the Turks and ruled over a lot of Arab lands, so there’s historical enmity. The third ethnic group is the Persians, who are mostly in their homeland of Iran and speak Farsi. Persia was a big empire long before Islam and some Persians look back at this classical history. The Persians are also mostly Shia, which means there is both an ethnic and a religious divide separating them from the Arabs and the Turks. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/4 "2014-06-17T13:07:35Z")
What divisions are there among Europeans? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/5 "2014-06-17T13:25:49Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > What divisions are there among Europeans? Nationalism, race, religion, economic class, soccer teams, etc. It’s a mad mad mad mad world. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/6 "2014-06-17T13:58:06Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Nationalism, race, religion, economic class, soccer teams, etc. It’s a mad mad mad mad world. I would add one: people who call the sport “soccer”, against those of us who call it “football”. Beat that, Arabs! ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/7 "2014-06-17T14:10:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Nationalism, race, religion, economic class, soccer teams, etc. It’s a mad mad mad mad world. You forgot things like political ideology, individualist vs collectivist cultures, etc, but good start. OK, then, you answered your own question about the Middle East and South Asia. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/8 "2014-06-17T14:34:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Turks came out of Central Asia. They’re basically Turkey and all of the **countries that end in Stan**. They converted to Islam but they didn’t adopt Arabic culture or language. So while both Turks and Arabs are Sunnis, there’s an ethnic divide. And the Ottoman Empire was run by the Turks and ruled over a lot of Arab lands, so there’s historical enmity. Emphasis added. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan: all not Turkish. Plus a few more. You can’t go by the “stan” ending, which just means “country” in Farsi. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/9 "2014-06-17T15:00:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan: all not Turkish. Plus a few more. > You can’t go by the “stan” ending, which just means “country” in Farsi. Good point. Many European countries and regions have a Germanic term in their name that has a similar meaning. Consider Eng_land_, Scot_land_, [Neder_land_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands), and [Deutsch_land_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/10 "2014-06-17T15:06:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan: all not Turkish. Plus a few more. > You can’t go by the “stan” ending, which just means “country” in Farsi. Ethnic Kazakhs are Turkic, though for a long time the majority of people (and still around 35% today) in Kazakhstan weren’t ethnic Kazakhs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/11 "2014-06-17T15:39:53Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Ethnic Kazakhs are Turkic, though for a long time the majority of people (and still around 35% today) in Kazakhstan weren’t ethnic Kazakhs. There is a difference between being “Turks” and being “Turkic”. The poster had had claimed they were “Turks”, which is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/12 "2014-06-17T15:55:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is a difference between being “Turks” and being “Turkic”. The poster had had claimed they were “Turks”, which is incorrect. Are Turkmen “Turks”? I always figured “Turkic” (which might sometimes be used interchangably with “Turkish” or “Turk”) was a large and broad ethnic classification like “Arabic”, and both groups can be further divided into groups like Turks, Turkmen, Kazaks, Uzbeks, etc. on the one side, and Egyptians, Yemeni, Bahraini, Bedouins, etc. on the other. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/13 "2014-06-17T16:17:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are Turkmen “Turks”? I always figured “Turkic” (which might sometimes be used interchangably with “Turkish” or “Turk”) was a large and broad ethnic classification like “Arabic”, and both groups can be further divided into groups like Turks, Turkmen, Kazaks, Uzbeks, etc. on the one side, and Egyptians, Yemeni, Bahraini, Bedouins, etc. on the other. No, it’s more like Germans and Germanic. “Turks” are from Turkey, as Germans are from Germany. Turkic peoples may be related to people in Turkey (ethnically and/or linguistically), but are not necessarily Turks (that is, people from Turkey). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/14 "2014-06-17T16:28:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s more like Germans and Germanic. > > “Turks” are from Turkey, as Germans are from Germany. > > Turkic peoples may be related to people in Turkey (ethnically and/or linguistically), but are not necessarily Turks (that is, people from Turkey). Is Arabic an equally broad group, considering the diversity among Arabs both ethnically and linguistically? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/15 "2014-06-17T16:48:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Are the Kurds a religious group or an ethnic group? Strictly ethnic. They have no distinct Kurdish religion; most of them are Sunni Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/16 "2014-06-17T16:48:21Z")
My understanding is that the Kurds are a fourth ethnic group (i.e. not Arab, Turkic, or Persian), mostly based in eastern Turkey, but also in northern Iraq, that the Kurds getting a homeland is something that the Turkish government is very committed to having not happen, because most of the “natural” homeland would be carved out of Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/17 "2014-06-17T17:32:30Z")
What about the Berbers? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/18 "2014-06-17T18:35:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s more like Germans and Germanic. > > “Turks” are from Turkey, as Germans are from Germany… And Germans are Germanic, but English, Dutch, Swedes, and Danes are also Germanic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/19 "2014-06-17T18:43:57Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > My understanding is that the Kurds are a fourth ethnic group (i.e. not Arab, Turkic, or Persian), mostly based in eastern Turkey, but also in northern Iraq, that the Kurds getting a homeland is something that the Turkish government is very committed to having not happen, because most of the “natural” homeland would be carved out of Turkey. True. See [Kurdistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan). It also includes parts of Iraq, Iran, and a bit of Syria. The Kurds are most closely related to the Persians, BTW, and speak a related language. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960/20 "2014-06-17T18:46:22Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > And Germans are Germanic, but English, Dutch, Swedes, and Danes are also Germanic. “An Englishman is a German who has forgotten his grandmother was Welsh.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-all-major-divisions-are-there-among-people-in-the-middle-east-north-africa-south-asia/690960.md?page=2)