# What am I not getting about crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 29, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535 "2016-03-29T16:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/21 "2016-03-30T18:54:43Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > … people commit crimes because they consciously choose to, with the expectation that the rewards outweigh the risks. Go talk to some criminals and you will realize just how wrong this notion is. If you don’t want to actually talk to them, just a day in criminal court observing their behaviour. In my experience, many criminals did not experience a privileged childhood where they enjoyed such luxuries as shelter and food on a regular basis. They don’t understand cause and effect very well, let alone abstract ideas like ‘tomorrow’. For instance, let’s talk about a kid I knew who committed a double murder when he was 13. This kid’s parents were suburban drug addicts who would kick him out of the house at 6 a.m. because they didn’t want him in the house while they indulged themselves. One weekend he and two friends whose parents were also crappy people got into the stash and started using, then decided to break into a neighbour’s house and trash the place because they thought it would be funny to make a mess while the owners were on vacation. Turned out the owners were home, and next thing you know two people are dead. Police discover the bodies a couple days later and have no clues… until the culprits start talking about what they did at the cafeteria table. In short: crimes are often committed by stupid people with poor impulse control. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/22 "2016-03-30T19:41:47Z")
But then sometimes criminals are actually very smart people who believe they are taking a calculated risk in doing some crime. Think about all the criminal hackers and white collar criminals out there. I’ve talked to people who work in prisons and some say they are truly smart people who have no remorse for their crimes and just wish they had not been caught. Granted others are dumb as a rock. I knew someone who as a young man committed an armed robbery on a dare. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/23 "2016-03-30T19:43:36Z")
Some people just need killin’. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/24 "2016-03-30T20:29:14Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But then sometimes criminals are actually very smart people who believe they are taking a calculated risk in doing some crime. Think about all the criminal hackers and white collar criminals out there. I’ve talked to people who work in prisons and some say they are truly smart people who have no remorse for their crimes and just wish they had not been caught. > > Granted others are dumb as a rock. I knew someone who as a young man committed an armed robbery on a dare. Yes, there are some criminals who are very smart. They’re the definite minority. Watch a few episodes of Cops, or Alaska Highway Patrol (a show which fascinates my wife, and which I’ve dubbed “Drunk Inuits in Trouble”). As others have already stated, most criminals suffer from one or more of the following: poor decision-making skills, poor assessment of risk, poor impulse control, poor socialization, desperation, and excessive use of drugs or alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/25 "2016-03-30T20:30:56Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Yes, there are some criminals who are very smart. They’re the definite minority. > > Watch a few episodes of Cops, or Alaska Highway Patrol (a show which fascinates my wife, and which I’ve dubbed “Drunk Inuits in Trouble”). As others have already stated, most criminals suffer from one or more of the following: poor decision-making skills, poor assessment of risk, poor impulse control, poor socialization, and excessive use of drugs or alcohol. Yes, but you never see, obviously, the ones that don’t get caught. It could be dumb luck, or it could be they’re a bit smarter. Probably some of each. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/26 "2016-03-30T20:41:49Z")
The OP operates using a Middle Ages framework of how free will works. When you update that to a modern framework, you get different results. No one chooses to have a personality order. No one chooses to have poor impulse control. Free will is not some absolute power exercised by the universally perfect spiritual soul over the flawed corporeal body. It is an emergent property of physical brains that are different from other physical brains. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/27 "2016-03-30T20:54:24Z")
**jtur88** touched on it, but the idea that smoking pot, gambling, driving too fast or using the wrong bathroom are “crimes” is asinine. Crime is murder, arson, rape, theft, battery and property damage. Things that actually harm other people. So is the OP talking about crime, that actually causes harm, or “crime”, which merely happens to be illegal? The motivations behind the two are often entirely different. The law and morality are orthogonal. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/28 "2016-03-30T21:01:17Z")
As the saying goes: 10% of the population will never steal. 10% of the population will always steal. 80% of the population _might_ steal, and those are the ones that security protocols are aimed toward. For that 80%, it is the combination of opportunity (How easy is it?), reward (How much will I gain?), risk (What are the chances I’ll be caught?), consequences (What will happen if I get caught?), and justification (How morally wrong do I feel this to be?) that determines whether they will commit any given theft. And different factors are given different weight by different people. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/29 "2016-03-30T21:02:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > **jtur88** touched on it, but the idea that smoking pot, gambling, driving too fast or using the wrong bathroom are “crimes” is asinine. Crime is murder, arson, rape, theft, battery and property damage. Things that actually harm other people. So is the OP talking about crime, that actually causes harm, or “crime”, which merely happens to be illegal? The motivations behind the two are often entirely different. The law and morality are orthogonal. While I generally agree with the principle of decriminalizing victimless crimes, I disagree with you on placing “driving too fast” on that list. It’s a public safety issue, and speeding does lead to traffic accidents, which can and do injure and kill others. (And I write this knowing that I’m a chronic speeder, though I’m not the jerk who’s doing 60 in a 35 zone…) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/30 "2016-03-30T21:12:20Z")
Driving recklessly or negligently puts people in danger. Exceeding the posted speed limit is not the same thing at all. Sometimes speed is a safety issue, but speed limits as currently used are revenue generators, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/31 "2016-03-31T00:06:09Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Driving recklessly or negligently puts people in danger. Exceeding the posted speed limit is not the same thing at all. Sometimes speed is a safety issue, but speed limits as currently used are revenue generators, pure and simple. Speed does not create significant increases in the frequency of accidents however it massively increases the severity of them thus the "public health"aspect. When a speeder screws up, people who might have walked away from a collision, get carried away. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/32 "2016-03-31T01:20:56Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I like to think of myself as a good person. I’ve never deliberately set out to hurt anyone. I’ve never committed an assault, or a robbery, or a murder, or whatever else. I don’t even have any particular inclination to do so. Same with drugs. I never had the slightest inkling that drugs would be something I might like to try. I don’t even drink or smoke, not out of some deep-seated ideological conviction but just because I think tobacco and alcohol taste awful. I very much agree with the sentiment that an honest man doesn’t need the law to tell him what “right” behavior is. I suppose I also adhere to Rational Theory of crime, which holds that people commit crimes because they consciously choose to, with the expectation that the rewards outweigh the risks. No rational realist could possibly think for a second that every wrongdoing results from conscious choice. A person’s current identity is sculpted by their past. Everyone’s past is comprised of one part nature (genetics, luck) and one part nurture (the good acts, neglect, and/or abuses of those who raised them). What a privileged upbringing you must have had. Your genes must be out of this world. To never have been addicted to cigarettes or heroin or meth. You’ve never pounded a series of jagerbombs and regretted it in the morning, never puff-puff-passed a joint. You haven’t felt the call of the void and downed every mind-altering substance within reach to stave it off. That’s OK, there are as many ways to live on this planet as there are people inhabiting it. Just don’t make the mistake of believing you’re approaching life from some sort of ethical high ground. Not everyone is as lucky and temptation-proof as you, but most are more well-rounded and open-minded. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The OP operates using a Middle Ages framework of how free will works. When you update that to a modern framework, you get different results. > > No one chooses to have a personality order. No one chooses to have poor impulse control. Free will is not some absolute power exercised by the universally perfect spiritual soul over the flawed corporeal body. It is an emergent property of physical brains that are different from other physical brains. Well said, my man. ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/33 "2016-03-31T09:03:54Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > **jtur88** touched on it, but the idea that smoking pot, gambling, driving too fast or using the wrong bathroom are “crimes” is **asinine**. Crime is murder, arson, rape, theft, battery and property damage. Things that actually harm other people. So is the OP talking about crime, that actually causes harm, or “crime”, which merely happens to be illegal? The motivations behind the two are often entirely different. The law and morality are orthogonal. (Bolding added) That word - I don’t think it means what you think it means. You are recognising a point that most are familiar with. Historically, lawyers drew a distinction between crimes that were intuitively wrong (mala in se) and crimes that were only wrong because the legislature said they were wrong (mala prohibita). The two have different styles of moral justification, but you cannot collectively dismiss mala prohibita crimes (as you seem to be by casting a wide net to illustrate them) as “asinine”. Now I am sure you can come up with some mala prohibita rules that I would agree are misconceived, and I can no doubt provide examples of such laws that you would accept as necessary. But you go on to say that law and morality are orthogonal. Allowing even for a certain dramatic hyperbole, this is silly. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/34 "2016-03-31T10:53:24Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I very much agree with the sentiment that an honest man doesn’t need the law to tell him what “right” behavior is. Many people aren’t “honest”. It is for them that we have a system of laws that tell them what they are not allowed to do and what the punishment will be if they do those things. > [@Chihuahua](#): > > This becomes an issue for me when I see someone who proposes a legal or policy change to help combat crimes. I don’t really get the point of this. It isn’t my responsibility to fix someone else’s criminality… It’s _their_ responsibility to refrain from criminal behavior. First of all, we need laws to define what is considered “criminal behavior”. Secondly, many laws, such as gun or drug laws, are passed (rightly or wrongly) with the intent to inhibit people’s ability to commit certain crimes. Or because those things have a potential to cause harm that exceeds their benefit. [quote=“Chihuahua, post:1, topic:750535”] People talk about how we can prevent mass shootings, for example, but I don’t see why _NOT_ committing mass murder or terrorism is an unreasonable expectation. Because people who commit these crimes are not “reasonable”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/35 "2016-03-31T17:43:44Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > You people realize that crime rates are at an all-time low? > [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/17/upshot/perceptions-havent-caught-up-to-decline-in-crime.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/17/upshot/perceptions-havent-caught-up-to-decline-in-crime.html?_r=0) That “all-time” thing [may have to be revised](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/19/fbi-murders-and-other-violent-crimes-increased-last-year/). There is little crime in my neighborhood; therefore I can’t understand why anyone is concerned about it. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/36 "2016-03-31T19:56:37Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Crime is the problem it is, largely, because our society has refused to ask exactly the questions that the OP raised. For starters, we have conflated crime with victimless but disapproved behavior, which has blown the statistical number of “criminals” far out of proportion to those who are genuinely antisocial. We have then created a criminal “justice” system in which people convicted of “crimes” are, for all practical purposes, stripped of their citizenry and forever excluded from an opportunity to live outside the criminal circle. > > There needs to be a realistic dialog addressing the identity of true criminals, and a mechanism for minimize society’s exposure to those who do not respond to rational motivational therapy. Instead of simply casting a net to bloat the enforcement statistics and then marking the catch with an indelible brand of felon. This, but let me expand a bit. Not only does society itself create criminal behavior by trying to regulate victimless behavior that it disapproves of, but makes it almost impossible for poor people to live without criminal acts. Suppose you make the minimum wage and work 40 hours a week. Lot’s of people cannot get even those jobs, but imagine you have one. What do you make? About $15,000 a year, a bit less actually. Could you live on $15,000 a year. Maybe in a cabin in Montana, but then you could not get to a job without a car and there goes that. The real crime, IMHO, is what we put people through. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/37 "2016-04-01T13:56:30Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > This, but let me expand a bit. Not only does society itself create criminal behavior by trying to regulate victimless behavior that it disapproves of, but makes it almost impossible for poor people to live without criminal acts. > > Suppose you make the minimum wage and work 40 hours a week. Lot’s of people cannot get even those jobs, but imagine you have one. What do you make? About $15,000 a year, a bit less actually. Could you live on $15,000 a year. Maybe in a cabin in Montana, but then you could not get to a job without a car and there goes that. The real crime, IMHO, is what we put people through. That’s bullshit. Plenty of poor people manage to live without becoming criminals. Or do you believe that every poor person sells drugs and runs a fencing operation on the side to make ends meet? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/38 "2016-04-01T14:57:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s bullshit. Plenty of poor people manage to live without becoming criminals. Or do you believe that every poor person sells drugs and runs a fencing operation on the side to make ends meet? Actually, few poor people live without becoming a criminal, you’re just thinking of the wrong crimes. The prevalance of low-level “poverty” offenses like driving an unregistered or uninsured car, drinking on the stoop, failing to pay municipal taxes, failing to get kids to school on time, failing to properly dispose of appliances, fishing/hunting without a license, or failure to pay traffic offenses is very high, especially among households that make less than $10,000 a year. You’d be surprised the number of such people who end up in jail either for petty offenses or for failing to pay debts accumulated as a result of the offenses. Obviously, that’s different from drug dealing, which was your point. But it is yet one more dimension of crime that amounts to something more than freely choosing to do wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/39 "2016-04-01T15:35:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s bullshit. Plenty of poor people manage to live without becoming criminals. Plenty of people smoke and don’t get lung cancer. Is there therefore no correlation between smoking and lung cancer? ---
**Author:** ![txst16](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@txst16](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txst16)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535/40 "2016-04-01T15:57:26Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I like to think of myself as a good person. I’ve never deliberately set out to hurt anyone. I’ve never committed an assault, or a robbery, or a murder, or whatever else. I don’t even have any particular inclination to do so. Same with drugs. I never had the slightest inkling that drugs would be something I might like to try. I don’t even drink or smoke, not out of some deep-seated ideological conviction but just because I think tobacco and alcohol taste awful. I very much agree with the sentiment that an honest man doesn’t need the law to tell him what “right” behavior is. I suppose I also adhere to Rational Theory of crime, which holds that people commit crimes because they consciously choose to, with the expectation that the rewards outweigh the risks. > > This becomes an issue for me when I see someone who proposes a legal or policy change to help combat crimes. I don’t really get the point of this. It isn’t my responsibility to fix someone else’s criminality… It’s _their_ responsibility to refrain from criminal behavior. So I get confused when I read about how we need to regulate guns or legalize drugs or things like that. Most of these policies hinge on the idea that crime is inevitable, so we should take steps to reduce/mitigate/regulate the undesirable behavior. I disagree with these policies because I disagree with the notion that crime itself is inevitable. > > People talk about how we can prevent mass shootings, for example, but I don’t see why _NOT_ committing mass murder or terrorism is an unreasonable expectation. It seems that many billions of people on this planet get through their whole lives without ever committing a mass shooting, so why is it so hard for other people to control themselves? Have they just figured something out that the criminals of the world are still struggling to understand? The same could be said about rape, or robbery, or drug use, or whatever. The expectations civilized society places upon us are pretty clear. What is it about crime that is just so darned attractive that people can’t be reasonably expected to resist? Check out crime trends and federal crime reports… for the past 8 or 9 years (probably longer than that) how often violent crimes are committed have steadily decreased and are continuing to do so. I disagree… crime is most definitely inevitable. To assume that the population of the world is at a balance where crime is not necessary for some people to commit is an unrealistic conclusion. You could argue the balance of good and evil here, but that would bring us off topic. Though the point is very supportive. I believe mass shootings occur (ultimately) because of certain free flow of information and the constant need society has for drama. Mass shootings are not a crime of specifics, mainly because they are geared towards a large group. Many times involving people having no direct effect on the crime itself. Also, you are arguing that because one man has a certain moral value that society as a whole should not be burdened with reality (that crime does exist and that policies involving the regulation of crimes is somehow pointless). Not sure what your question is or even if you have one, but if there is the possibility of mass crime and there is, then policy change is inevitable. The unsettling truth is that the more we grow and expand or thinking the more possibilities and problems crimes present. The question you need to ask yourself here is what is important to you. Family, friends… Work, travel… Money… all of which fall victim to crimes (some harder than others). Even criminals protect whats valuable to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-am-i-not-getting-about-crime/750535.md?page=3)