What annoys me the most about Florida

What are you talking about? Gore actually conceded until he realized there were improprieties. And Bush’s people have tried just as many, if not more, pre-emptive court motions in this couting debacle. As far as the SOS’s “smearing,” she was Bush’s Florida campaign co-chair, for crying out loud. Of course she is going to come under fire for any decision on the matter–she’s blatatantly partisan. Give me a break. The Republicans are doing the same exact thing to the left-leaning FL Supreme Court.

How can anyone clamor for enforcement of the law, upholding Harris’ decision as final. There are a seeming infinite number of factors coming into play every day. sailor, that “ends do not justify the means” theory is Immanuel Kant b.s. and has been philosophically disproved aeons ago. To kill a person is wrong, so that means you would not kill a terrorist to keep that person from killing many people in a hostage situation? I can’t believe I even have to mention this.

Clearly, Florida’s election laws are WAY messed and have been for decades. The whole reason for the cramped and “confusing” ballots in the first place is a ballot reform law passed only two years ago. The freakin’ deadline law in Florida was first put in place, basically, to prevent embarassment in vote counting.

To say that Harris is absolutely right in upholding one specific law is to say that it’s okay to pick a line out of the Bible and regard it as absolute truth. Ridiculous. Furthermore, anyone arguing the Rule of Law in this election decision while favoring one side over the other is displaying blatant idiocy.

Notice, that is “blatant” idiocy, unlike the “blatatant” idiocy displayed in my several misspellings.

Uh-oh! Maybe you should have read this thread before you say that…

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=37272

Also–how can you have “a fair interpretation of the laws” when there aren’t any laws, as is the case in a number of aspects of the “unwritten UK constitution”?

Style:

Nor would I. But where in the WORLD has this happened??? Which election have you been watching, eh?

No. Love bugs are tiny little black flies with black-and-yellow wings; June bugs are enormous flying brown beetles (some can be as big as your thumb) that make a loud CRUNCH-SQUISH when you step on one. If you ride a motorcycle sans helmet, you do not want one to hit your nose at 60 MPH. Trust me on this.

Gore began the concession process when “the system” told him, and the rest of the world, that Bush had won. (That’s a whole new thread.) “The system” recanted, and prior to making a public statement, Gore recanted his concession. I can think of noone that wouldn’t have done exactly the same thing. But I don’t consider this an impropriety.

Not that it matters, but the Democrats had filed 8 suits within 24 hours of the polls closing. Some have been dropped, others consolidated, and more have been filed since. The Republicans filed 1 suit to the Federal Courts and upon having the suit rejected, appealed to a higher court.

The Democrats began their smear campaign against SOS Harris prior to her decision and statement so the defense “Of course she is going to come under fire for any decision on the matter” doesn’t wash. While you can certainly make a good arguement regarding her partisanship, there are precious few in this matter that aren’t partisan. The Florida Attorney General, Gore’s Florida campaign manager has tried to stick his nose into things despite NO law or precedent allow hit to do so.

Gore’s national campaign manager, Daley, doesn’t exactly have the best name when it comes to fair elections. It seems to me that his resume should come under fire long before some of the others.

Re Harris: What statements have been made by anyone in authority on the Democratic side that you consider a “smear campaign” rather than “certainly making a good argument regarding her partisanship” (your words in both cases) ?

Re Daley: He’s not making the decisions as to which votes matter and which don’t. Harris is. Are you suggesting that a retaliatory smear campaign, or whatever you call it, is appropriate? If so, what “fair elections” problems do you ascribe to him rather than his father?

Please - you can do better than this.

Whay annoys me most.
Well, the fact that its 34 and snowy here and not in Florida.
Also, the fact that they don’t seem to be able to vote or count properly.

Those in Ohio obviously can’t spell correctly…

Has he ever actually done anything himself that could begin to justify this remark, or are you holding his FATHER against him? If it is the latter, I have to say I think that is a horrible thing to say, and unjust in the extreme. “Your dad’s a dick which means you are, too.” Now that’s an impressive bit of logic.
Stoid

First, it wasn’t “the Democrats” who filed 8 suits within 24 hours of the polls closing, it was VOTERS. Of course they were Democrats, but there were no suits filed by the Democratic Party or the Gore campaign before the Bush campaign went to court to try to prohibit certain hand recounts of ballots.

Second, you obviously don’t know what an Attorney General does, so let me tell you. One of his responsibilities is to interpret laws and issue opinions on them for local authorities when those people are uncertain how to proceed in a certain matter. It seems to me that this is precisely what was done in Florida. To say that there is no law or prescedent for the Attorney General’s opinion is utterly wrong.

actually ** Stoid**, I think your statement here could be considered as what ** SouthernStyle** (Hi Southern Style) is claiming. while I think the arguement can be CLEARLY made that her position as SoS AND as co chair of the Bush campaign makes it difficult for her to claim impartiality, this is NOT the same as proof that she’s made any decision improperly.

In fact, a judge (a democrat) has upheld her actions as being within the scope of her discretion.

So, while some might believe that she has acted out of a sense of a self serving nature, a flat out statement that she is, is not justified.

Nor is is justified, OTOH to make the spurious claims about the PBC officials, being democrats, would count ballots in any but a fair manner, simply because they are Democrats.

Neither extreme serves any purpose, IMHO.

But, I think Elvisl1ves has correctly taken ** Southern Style** to task on making the statement of the “smear campaign”, since ** Stoid** AFAIK is not on a national level making these claims…

SouthernStyle, nobody can smear Ms. Harris the way she herself has done so.

As I’ve said elsewhere in this forum, if Bush should become president, I want her to have the most high-visibility post they can possibly give her. I have great confidence in her ability to make a Bush Administration look even worse than Bush himself can, and with much greater alacrity.

A few points/observations:

  1. Any semblance of impartiality on the part of anyone went out the window at about 5:00 a.m. on November 8. The only person who hasn’t acted on his/her partisanship is Jeb.

  2. The Attorney General of Florida has no say whatsoever in the conduct of elections. That task falls solely to the Secretary of State (by virtue of the Florida constitution).

  3. IMHO, the ballots in PBC are now irretrievably tainted by handling for the recount, the partial recount, and now the full recount so whatever the outcome (and I will be very surprised if Gore isn’t on top come next Wednesday or whenever it is they finish), it is not an accurate count of the valid votes cast on November 7.

  4. There were no “improprieties” that caused Gore to retract his concession, simply that the final numbers were so close. This was apparently based in part on some of his supporters being unable to properly complete the ballot.

  5. Judge Lewis, a Democrat, has found that Ms. Harris acted within her discretion, as an officer of the executive branch, in rejecting amended counts after the statutorily created deadline. The Florida Supreme Court can do nothing but decide whether Judge Lewis was correct in finding that Ms. Harris has not acted arbitrarily or capriciously in adhering to the statutory deadline.

David, I think there are a lot of people who care about the truth, and about getting it right - not a plurality by any means, but still a bigger group than, say, the Nader vote. But, let’s face it, it doesn’t make a very rousing poster to wave. And people who feel strongly enough about a cause to get out there in public, these days, are going to do so because they feel strongly about one side or the other, not in support of an abstraction.

An election is supposed to reflect the will of the people, and in particular, those people who cared enough to show up at a polling place and vote. It’s not supposed to be a vision or IQ test; it’s not supposed to be a test of whether aging hands can adequately punch a hole in a piece of paper. In each state, at least, it’s supposed to tell us which of the candidates involved was favored by the most people. (And in the Presidential election, of course, it’s supposed to take the electoral votes of each state, and add them up to see who’s got the most of those. But within each state, the idea is to measure who had more supporters show up at the polls Tuesday before last.)

In Florida, it’s becoming increasingly hard to argue that more Bush supporters tried to vote than Gore supporters. All that can be said is that Bush voters, for a number of reasons, were more successful at having their votes correctly recorded. The two main known foul-ups in the Florida tally were the problems with the punched ballots, and the poorly lined up Palm Beach ‘butterfly ballot’. Both problems clearly caused intended votes to not be counted, or to be incorrectly counted. The effect of both kinds of undercount, if you will, fell disproportionately on Gore voters. The punched ballots were apparently used much more heavily in Democratic areas than in Republican areas, primarily due to cost considerations; as a result, the votes lost to ‘hanging chads’ and the like were primarily Democratic. And the sample we have of the double-punched ballots in Palm Beach County has backed my thesis of bias due to the off-shift of the paper relative to the holes on the ballot’s spine: as I sum up here, the odds that Gore didn’t lose a net of over 5000 votes to unintentional double-voting appear to be well over a million to one, and a better guesstimate would be in the 12-13,000 range.

If there’s a source of biased results in this election - in Florida or anywhere else - to compensate, we don’t know about it. As Florida’s votes endure increasing scrutiny, it becomes more unlikely that such a source exists there. One source that has been mentioned is the projection of Florida for Gore by the networks before the polls closed in the CST portion of the FL panhandle, up near Pensacola. But considering that that projection occured only scant minutes ahead of the closing of polls there, and considering that the total vote in that largely Republican part of the state totalled only 375,000 votes for the day, one has to question how many total votes they could have lost in the last 10-15 minutes. Most people who heard the news who might have voted would have had to be already in their cars, driving to the polls just before closing time; maybe some of them turned around and drove home, but that’s ‘some’ out of a pretty small number to begin with. After that, claims of undercounted Bush voters in FL are few and far between. (Duval County’s disqualified ballots are apparently largely from heavily Democratic precincts, incidentally.)

And elsewhere - well, if there’s a problem, let them raise it. There would have to be a couple of them, because if FL is Gore’s, that would give him 287 or 292 EC votes, depending on NM (OR went for Gore early today). But at this point, I have to believe that the will of the FL voters on Election Day was to support Gore, by probably a margin of well over 10,000 votes.

Morally, I believe the proper course of action for George W. Bush would be to acknowledge the will of the voters in Florida, and concede the election. This would never happen in any number of alternate universes, of course. But the closer I look at how Florida’s Election Day went, the more unavoidable that conclusion seems to me. There were thousands of Gore votes out there that, due to the aforementioned factors, didn’t get counted as such, and there just aren’t enough possible uncounted Bush votes to come close to balancing that out. I could be wrong, but that’s how I see it.

You might want to read this St. Pete Times article before you say that:
http://www.sptimes.com/News/111700/Election2000/6_Bush_staffers_take_.shtml

Seems Jeb has had 6 (so far) of his staffers take leave for “political” activities since the election. Keep an eye on this one.

Firstly, a very excellent and well-written argument, RTFirefly. Too bad right and wrong have nothing to do with politics (or, often, the law).

I’m with ElvisL1ves. I seem to remember George W. announcing from his living room on the evening of the 7th that Jeb assured him Florida would go Republican despite network news projections. I’m not directly accusing Jeb of acting on anything, but that kind of statement seems to fall under “semblance of impartiality” before 5:00 a.m. Nov 8.

IMHO, you sound like a quack. We’ve already discussed the probability of hand counts holding greater accuracy over those done by machine. To claim that Gore will cheat and cheat until he wins is absurd. Have you read any details of this election?

impropriety - (n) an unfit or incorrect act

Everything is subject to appeal; just ask the Republicans who filed legal briefs for a lawsuit in case Lewis ruled against Harris. Personally, I hope the Democrats do not appeal (though I assert this would be within the Letter of the Law).

The only real problem I have with Gore is the people who like him:) I’ve seen tons of insults to Bush and tons against basically any republican. I however have not seen little of the same against Democrats. This shows to me that the results will invariably be tainted towards Gore.

IMHO if you can’t make your arguement without being rude you don’t have a arguement worth reading. Keeping on topic I don’t have much respect for laws but alot of respect for morality which made me stop arguing for Bush after he enacted that hand count law in his own state and argues against it in Florida.

I too have not seen little of the same against Democrats! In fact, I’ve seen quite a bit of it. I hope it stops.

Perceptual bias is a real problem, certainly.