# What are Christian principles and values? Do they actually exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397 "2007-10-03T16:08:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/1 "2007-10-03T16:08:34Z")
Two terms I hear fairly often in discussions, preaching, pamphlets, etc. are Christian values and Christian principles. I’m interested in hearing ideas on what these are from those who use the term to indicate something valuable or positive, or any other opinions. IMO there is no such thing. The positive things usually referred to are principles and values that exist independent of Christianity and are the same principles and values used by other religions and non religious philosophies long before Christianity existed. As such, Christianity adds nothing unique to them that makes those two terms meaningful in any way. There are Christian dogma and doctrine, and beliefs that vary from one denomination to the other, but I can’t think of a single principle or value that is somehow uniquely Christian to give those terms any real meaning at all. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/2 "2007-10-03T16:20:30Z")
I think any pamphlet or flyer that mentions “Christian values” is preaching to fundamentalists who think that Christians are the only ones with any morals and that everyone else is a godless heathen. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/3 "2007-10-03T17:07:45Z")
Of course there are Christian values. Look at the Gospels and find the story wherein Jesus is asked what the most important Commandment is. He answers: “to love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, all thy mind, and all thy soul.” The second most important Commandment then, is “to love thy neighbor as thyself.” The problem is not with Christian values. The problem is with those who identify themselves as Christians but don’t live with those values at the forefront of their minds. Culture overrides religion unless the individual makes an enormous effort to investigate and consider the beliefs they grew up with. Most people fail to do this because it is a lengthy and painful process guaranteed to bring them into conflict with the people they love. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/4 "2007-10-03T17:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > …I can’t think of a single principle or value that is somehow uniquely Christian to give those terms any real meaning at all. You’re moving the goalposts, there. There probably aren’t any principles or values which are _uniquely_ Christian. But there are values which are Christian, and also Jewish, and Hindu, and Confucian, and… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/5 "2007-10-03T18:55:55Z")
Thou shalt not have an abortion (nor let anyone else have one). Thou shalt not engage in homosexual sex (nor allow any government recognition of homosexuals). Thou shalt pray in schools, both public and private. Thou shalt post the 10 commandments in every government facility that exists. Thou shalt piss and moan when someone says “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” Those are the ones off the top of my head that I remember from the Gospels. I’m sure there are others. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/6 "2007-10-03T19:05:26Z")
Without even entering into whether or not modern Christians follow them, I would say Christian values are well summed up by Jesus during the Beatitudes: > [@Matthew 5](#): > > 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. > 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. > 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. > 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. > 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. > 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. > 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. > 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. > 11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And by Paul when he extols the virtues of love (charity): > [@1 Corinthians 13](#): > > 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. > 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. > 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. > 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. > 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. > 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. > 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. To me, those encapsulate it pretty well: loving others unconditionally and reacting to wrongs with patience and meekness. BTW, I predict this thread will become a toilet for one of my fellow atheists within the next ten posts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/7 "2007-10-03T19:10:47Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] You’re moving the goalposts, there. There probably aren’t any principles or values which are _uniquely_ Christian. But there are values which are Christian, and also Jewish, and Hindu, and Confucian, and… [/QUOTE] He said in the OP that he was looking for something _uniquely_ Christian, so he isn’t moving any goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/8 "2007-10-03T19:12:46Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Without even entering into whether or not modern Christians follow them, I would say Christian values are well summed up by Jesus during the Beatitudes:And by Paul when he extols the virtues of love (charity):To me, those encapsulate it pretty well: loving others unconditionally and reacting to wrongs with patience and meekness. [/quote] None of that was original to Christianity, though. All that stuff already existed in Buddhism and arguably in Judaism as well. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/9 "2007-10-03T19:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] He said in the OP that he was looking for something _uniquely_ Christian, so he isn’t moving any goalposts. [/QUOTE] No, but he is setting up a strawman. He says that he hears the terms"Christian values" and “Christian principles”, in discussions, preaching, pamphlets, etc., and counters that by claiming that there are no uniquely Christian values or principles. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/10 "2007-10-03T19:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] BTW, I predict this thread will become a toilet for one of my fellow atheists within the next ten posts. [/QUOTE] I’ll do you one better and name that athiest. 😉 I would say that the principle most often associated with Christianity is the “love thy neighbour” one (along with worship of God, but that’s a given). OTOH, when “Christian values” are cited, it often seems to mean one of the things **John Mace** suggests (same as “family values”, really)\*. In the loosest interpretation, a “Christian value” is any value held by a Christian because of their faith, but the golden rule and worship seem to be the ones most generally believed in. \*Then again, as an athiest generally I am exposed more often to the nutcase Christians rather than what your average Christian would hear in church or talk about. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/11 "2007-10-03T19:17:33Z")
[QUOTE=phouka] Of course there are Christian values. Look at the Gospels and find the story wherein Jesus is asked what the most important Commandment is. He answers: “to love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, all thy mind, and all thy soul.” The second most important Commandment then, is “to love thy neighbor as thyself.” [/quote] He was quoting Rabbi Hillel who was quoting Leviticus. “Love thy neighbor” was Jewish before it was Christian (but it wasn’t original to either). ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/12 "2007-10-03T19:17:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] None of that was original to Christianity, though. All that stuff already existed in Buddhism and arguably in Judaism as well. [/QUOTE] Ah, I glossed over the “uniquely.” In that case, there will be relatively few unique religious values. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/13 "2007-10-03T19:19:05Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] No, but he is setting up a strawman. He says that he hears the terms"Christian values" and “Christian principles”, in discussions, preaching, pamphlets, etc., and counters that by claiming that there are no uniquely Christian values or principles. [/QUOTE] I’ve been assuming that this thread was inspired by this thread: [McCain says US Constitution establishes “Christian Nation”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438647) Surely that doesn’t mean “Love they neighbor as thyself”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/14 "2007-10-03T19:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] No, but he is setting up a strawman. He says that he hears the terms"Christian values" and “Christian principles”, in discussions, preaching, pamphlets, etc., and counters that by claiming that there are no uniquely Christian values or principles. [/QUOTE] I think the point (and I agree with this) is that the phrase “Christian values” doesn’t _mean_ anything. If I, as an atheist, believe in helping thepoor and being faithful to my wife, does that mean that compassion for the poor and marital fidelity are “atheist values?” When the phrase “Christian values” is used politically, the intent is to arrogate or lay claim to some kind of divine authority to legislate against the behavior of others. More subtly it’s also intended to imply that universal human ethics are uniquely Christian, as though basic human decency was something they invented. I think that Christianity --to some degree – does try to _stress_ ideals like humility, compassion, patience, forgiveness and personal responsibility, but it’s dishonest for _any_ religion to try to claim ownership of those values, and to be perfectly frank, those aren’t usually the kind of values that are being referred to when the phrase is used politically. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/15 "2007-10-03T20:15:06Z")
If **I** used the phrase “Christian values/principles,” I would mean the values/principles taught by Christ (and/or by his earliest followers). This would include things like “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.” “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you.” “Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” “Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? … But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.” "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. “This is my command: Love each other.” I’d be interested to see how a nation dedicated to such principles would work out in practice. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/16 "2007-10-03T20:23:40Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] … There probably aren’t any principles or values which are _uniquely_ Christian. [/QUOTE] Well, there is the principle (_i.e._ fundamental doctrine or assumption) that Jesus was the Son of God and by His death redeemed from sin all those who accept Him. I think that is uniquely Christian. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/17 "2007-10-03T20:32:33Z")
I would say that “Christain Values”, in it’s _normal_ usage, as opposed to the “not exising anywhere else at all ever” condition stated by the OP, still comes across as largely being proscriptions against things: don’t have premarital sex, don’t drink, don’t gamble, don’t do secular work on sunday, don’t be gay, don’t have abortions, don’t not-be-Christian, etc. This “love everyone” stuff may be the values they’re technically _supposed_ to have, but it’s not what they’re selling to the public. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/18 "2007-10-03T20:43:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] When the phrase “Christian values” is used politically, the intent is to arrogate or lay claim to some kind of divine authority to legislate against the behavior of others. [/QUOTE] Indeed. Or to put it another way, “Christians”–as defined by conservative evangelicals, meaning themselves–are to sole custodians of the values upon which our nation was founded. So they’re entitled to be kept in charge, lest our foundation crumble and our nation collapse. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/19 "2007-10-03T20:48:52Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I think the point (and I agree with this) is that the phrase “Christian values” doesn’t _mean_ anything. If I, as an atheist, believe in helping thepoor and being faithful to my wife, does that mean that compassion for the poor and marital fidelity are “atheist values?” When the phrase “Christian values” is used politically, the intent is to arrogate or lay claim to some kind of divine authority to legislate against the behavior of others. More subtly it’s also intended to imply that universal human ethics are uniquely Christian, as though basic human decency was something they invented. I think that Christianity --to some degree – does try to _stress_ ideals like humility, compassion, patience, forgiveness and personal responsibility, but it’s dishonest for _any_ religion to try to claim ownership of those values, and to be perfectly frank, those aren’t usually the kind of values that are being referred to when the phrase is used politically. [/QUOTE] Exactly. It’s how the phrases are used and what I see as the implied meaning that bothers me. No doubt their are values in the words of Jesus in the NT as some have listed and those might be legitimately called Christian values. It is painfully obvious with just a little thought that these same values and principles exist in many other religions and in philosophies apart from any religion. It seems to me that when these terms are so casually used it is usually without even that minimum thought process , and it is usually implied that these values are somehow improved upon by adding the “Christian” descriptor. I find that to false to be acceptable language. When someone says this country was founded on Christian principles it is to imply that Christianity has some form of dibbs on this country and we are betraying our heritage. They suggest, perhaps without realizing it, that it is not the values themselves , that have long existed and been demonstrated outside of Christianity, that we need to return to and reinforce, but it is specifically the Christianity label that we owe some allegiance to. I find that completely unacceptable and dishonest on several levels. When people speak of Christian values they suggest again that somehow these values are improved upon by adding the label of Christianity, and these same values when taught in other religions and philosophies are inferior in some way. That’s also unacceptable to me. If the addition of the Christian descriptor to values or principles adds nothing of import to the things they are describing then the only purpose it serves IMHO is to be a line of separation between those who freely use these terms and everyone else who embraces those very values without the added qualifier. Wouldn’t it serve us better to agree on values that we agree on without religious qualifiers? Shouldn’t we applaud and recognize positive values and principles from any source, including Muslim, Atheist, Wiccan, Pagen, whatever. It’s a matter of priorities to me. The principle of compassion or charity toward others should come first and the details of what vehicle served to bring the person there should be secondary at best. The addition of the Christian descriptor seeks to stress the Christian label over the principle or value IMO. I find that dishonest and harmful in dialogue. That’s why I say, if it’s not uniquely Christian then there’s really no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/20 "2007-10-03T20:50:45Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Well, there is the principle (_i.e._ fundamental doctrine or assumption) that Jesus was the Son of God and by His death redeemed from sin all those who accept Him. I think that is uniquely Christian. [/QUOTE] But that isn’t a value per se, is it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397.md?page=2)