# What are Christian principles and values? Do they actually exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397 "2007-10-03T16:08:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/81 "2007-10-04T03:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Tris you are always welcome. No intrusion. I see your point now that you’ve explained. Sorry to be so abrupt. [/quote] You are forgiven. 😉 > [@](#): > > . . . I am also honoring the teachings of Jesus. I think JC, Buddha, and other religious leaders wanted us to honor the acts born of those values and the sincerity of the heart doing the actions more than the labels that separate us into different denominations and religions. > [@Mathew: chap 25](#): > > 37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ > > 40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ > [@Cosmosdan](#): > > . . . perhaps it would be more productive to stress the principles over the labels. Perhaps it would. And perhaps we would be blessed for even trying to. Tris ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/82 "2007-10-04T10:33:10Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I don’t take it as sinning, but as rejection of God, Jesus and Salvation. A willful act of basically telling God thanks for your gift, but I chose not to accept it, and will be aligning myself with Satan against you. To some degree this is true, but we are avoiding eternal destruction, as jesus has paid our debt. [/QUOTE] We won’t agree on what that gift is and I’m not interested in a debate on Christian doctrine. My observation is that to often in Christianity the brand name is stressed over the actual application of the principles JC taught. Accepting the gift isn’t something that’s done at an emotional tear filled alter call one time. It’s doing our best to live those values and principles day after day, choice after choice. Embracing long held traditions instead of the truth impedes our growth rather than encouraging it. Which brings us back to the OP {hopefully} There are principles widely accepted as being taught by JC such as those contained in the sermon on the mount. My point is that by insisting we stamp the Christian label on principles and values taught by other religions as well we are encouraging division rather than unity. The manner in which those terms are commonly used implies to me that it isn’t the values of compassion toward others and the brotherhood of man that are of primary importance, but rather the recognition of Christianity. I find this unacceptable and detrimental. I’d even say it is worshiping Jesus with their lips but not with their hearts since the name of Jesus and his iconic image becomes more important than the actual living of his teachings. To say most of the founding fathers were Christians may be true as an interesting historical note, but to say “this country was founded on Christian principles” is a phrase designed to stress Christianities dominion more often than not. I find that to be a particularly uncharitable act not to mention historically meaningless. Many Christians already realize that the principles and values they find attractive in the teachings of Jesus are shared by others who discovered them through a different vehicle. Focusing on the values rather than the vehicle moves us more toward unity and cooperation while allowing people to approach those values with whatever vehicle works best for them. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/83 "2007-10-04T11:10:44Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It’s the same word, it’s not the same being. Socreates was emphatically not talking about an evil entity. The word literally means “god” (small g), a lesser deity or as something FROM a deity. That something could be something figurative like wisdom or something more literal like a divine messenger. The concept was much more like an angel than a demon. The word is used in the NT to refer to devils because as a generic word for minor spirits or deities, it was the best word available for Near Eastern conception of evil spirits. Socrates did not use the word in anything like the Christian sense of “demon.” [/QUOTE] The word devils is a mistranslation in the KJ Bible, there is one devil, the word should be demons. Demons don’t have to appear to be evil, though they are - scriptures speak of a slave girl who’s demon would allow her to tell the future - doesn’t sound bad, and sounds a bit like Socrates demon. One theory in Christian demonology is that the earthbound demons are there to interact with man to guide their destinies in this world. They take their orders from the fallen angels ( Mt. Olympic gods), possibly from a intermediate class of higher demons. Though the above is just a theory, there is nothing in scriptures that I’m aware of that contradicts this, and some aspects can be supported. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/84 "2007-10-04T11:32:18Z")
[QUOTE=DtC] I don’t know what you mean about a “split,” [/QUOTE] The split between use of the word demon for Christian demonology and Daemon for Greek. Before that it was the same word, the word Jesus chose to use. If it was not the same entity Jesus could have chosen a different word, perhaps leppercon \, or just stuck with evil spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/85 "2007-10-04T11:35:48Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] The split between use of the word demon for Christian demonology and Daemon for Greek. Before that it was the same word, the word Jesus chose to use. If it was not the same entity Jesus could have chosen a different word, perhaps leppercon \, or just stuck with evil spirit. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/86 "2007-10-04T11:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Accepting the gift isn’t something that’s done at an emotional tear filled alter call one time. It’s doing our best to live those values and principles day after day, choice after choice. Embracing long held traditions instead of the truth impedes our growth rather than encouraging it. [/QUOTE] While this is a aspect of it, it’s not the only aspect. The other side of this is that tear filled call to God (not the alter), is surrendering yourself to God, telling God that you give your life to Him, to do as He choses, God then starts to transform your life to His will. The amount of transformation and service to God has to do with your own subberness, but God is able to break your will. > [@](#): > > Which brings us back to the OP {hopefully} There are principles widely accepted as being taught by JC such as those contained in the sermon on the mount. My point is that by insisting we stamp the Christian label on principles and values taught by other religions as well we are encouraging division rather than unity. The manner in which those terms are commonly used implies to me that it isn’t the values of compassion toward others and the brotherhood of man that are of primary importance, but rather the recognition of Christianity. I hear what you are stating, and understand this POV you are expressing. Jesus stated love for God first, love for man second. Jesus didn’t hate the sinner, even ones who rejected Him. Division is not in the Spirit of God and doing so is falling into sin. As a believer I don’t even like the term Christian as it’s meaning is pretty meaningless IMHO. > [@](#): > > To say most of the founding fathers were Christians may be true as an interesting historical note, but to say “this country was founded on Christian principles” is a phrase designed to stress Christianities dominion more often than not. I find that to be a particularly uncharitable act not to mention historically meaningless. Some aspects of it are very Christian in the spiritual sense, and anti-Christian in the worldly sense. The freedom of religion seems like something Jesus would have approved of, as no one can be forced by man to come to God, only God can do that, but we wuld need a system that would allow God’s people to be able to reach others. I don’t think it’s a issue if man founded a Christian nation, but did God found a Christian nation. > [@](#): > > Many Christians already realize that the principles and values they find attractive in the teachings of Jesus are shared by others who discovered them through a different vehicle. Focusing on the values rather than the vehicle moves us more toward unity and cooperation while allowing people to approach those values with whatever vehicle works best for them. But it is not by works we are saved. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/87 "2007-10-04T11:58:46Z")
**Czarcasm** > [@](#): > > The words daemon, dæmon, are Latinized spellings of daimon, Greek δαιμων, used purposely today to distinguish the daemons of Ancient Greek religion, good or malevolent “supernatural beings between mortals and gods, such as inferior divinities and ghosts of dead heroes” (see Plato’s Symposium), from the Judeo-Christian usage demon, “a malignant spirit that can se duce afflict, or possess humans.” [citation needed] **This notion of the daemon as a spiritual being of a lowly order that is largely evil and certainly dangerous has its origin in Plato and his pupil Xenocrates;** [1] - [Daimon - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(mythology)) Bold mine, showing at the time of Plato, daemons were know to be largely evil, which IIRC Plato was a student of Socrates. > [@](#): > > Demon and daemon were once used interchangeably. The former came to English from medieval Latin, while the latter was from classical Latin. The earliest use appears to have been in the phrase daemon of Socrates, which was his “attendant, ministering, or indwelling spirit; genius”. That was in the late 14th century. It was a short time later that the term demon came to refer to “an evil spirit” by influence of its usage in various versions of the Bible. - [The Origin of the word Daemon](http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Daemon.html) OK it was the 14th Cent, not the 17th, and this is not the cite I was looking for but shows they were the same at one time. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/88 "2007-10-04T12:32:17Z")
\*\*Czarcasm \*\* does this sound like a evil spirit, or more like Socrates daemon? [QUOTE=Acts 16] 16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her. - NIV [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/89 "2007-10-04T12:45:20Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] While this is a aspect of it, it’s not the only aspect. The other side of this is that tear filled call to God (not the alter), is surrendering yourself to God, telling God that you give your life to Him, to do as He choses, God then starts to transform your life to His will. The amount of transformation and service to God has to do with your own subberness, but God is able to break your will. [/QUOTE] The problem is that people like Fred Phelps swear they are giving their lives to God yet his actions speak of something quite different. Jesus taught that it is by the nature of our actions that we reveal what spirit moves us. So God gave us free will in order to break it? > [@](#): > > Some aspects of it are very Christian in the spiritual sense, and anti-Christian in the worldly sense. The freedom of religion seems like something Jesus would have approved of, as no one can be forced by man to come to God, only God can do that, but we wuld need a system that would allow God’s people to be able to reach others. I don’t think it’s a issue if man founded a Christian nation, but did God found a Christian nation. This smacks of “I know I have the truth and I know God wants me to share it” It’s that kind of attitude that bothers me. Aren’t we all God’s people? The system for us to reach others is life and living it. Our interaction with others sets an example. As we grow we provide a better example. I think it is only man that places such importance on labels like Christian and non Christian when it comes to individuals or nations. Were those who committed horrible acts during the crusades or the inquisition part of a Christian nation established by God? Hardly > [@](#): > > But it is not by works we are saved. says Christian tradition according to certain interpretations of the a 2000 year old book. Have you noticed how many times the NT says we will be judged according to our works rather than just our beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/90 "2007-10-04T13:04:44Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Without even entering into whether or not modern Christians follow them, I would say Christian values are well summed up by Jesus during the Beatitudes:And by Paul when he extols the virtues of love (charity):To me, those encapsulate it pretty well: loving others unconditionally and reacting to wrongs with patience and meekness. BTW, I predict this thread will become a toilet for one of my fellow atheists within the next ten posts. [/QUOTE] I think you have summed it up well with your quotes. Spiritual people usually call it the “Christ Consciousness.” You can practice it without being a Christian, and yes, it is not unique. But it will bring you untold wealth and peace. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/91 "2007-10-04T14:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] The split between use of the word demon for Christian demonology and Daemon for Greek. [/quote] _Daimon_ is Greek, _Daemon_ is Latin. There was no Greek “demonology.” There was a Greek work for minor spirits and deities which was selected as the most passable translation for an Aramaic word referring to evil spirits. > [@](#): > > Before that it was the same word, the word Jesus chose to use. If it was not the same entity Jesus could have chosen a different word, perhaps leppercon \, or just stuck with evil spirit. Jesus did not speak Greek. The Gospels do not reflect Jesus’ actual words but translations of his words from Aramaic into Greek. Jesus would not have literally said _daimon_. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/92 "2007-10-04T15:05:26Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] _Daimon_ is Greek, _Daemon_ is Latin. There was no Greek “demonology.” There was a Greek work for minor spirits and deities which was selected as the most passable translation for an Aramaic word referring to evil spirits. Jesus did not speak Greek. The Gospels do not reflect Jesus’ actual words but translations of his words from Aramaic into Greek. Jesus would not have literally said _daimon_. [/QUOTE] Do you think that makes a diiference if that’s what He said? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/93 "2007-10-04T15:14:09Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Do you think that makes a diiference if that’s what He said? [/QUOTE] Since **Kanicbird** is trying to make an argument that Socrates claimed to be possessed by a demon based on the specious argument that the same Greek word is used in the NT for Palestinian demons that Socrates used for an indwelling spirit which he believed disuaded him from doing evil, then it is indeed relevant that Jesus did not actually used the same word but an Aramaic word which was translated approximately into Greek in the Gospels. Socrates’ _daimon_ had no theological relationship to Christian “demons.” ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/94 "2007-10-04T15:28:50Z")
I’m thinking po tay toe, po tah toe. Since Jesus spoke of demons many times in the new testament I don’t have any don’t about what he was speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/95 "2007-10-04T15:55:37Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] I’m thinking po tay toe, po tah toe. Since Jesus spoke of demons many times in the new testament I don’t have any don’t about what he was speaking. [/QUOTE] Neither do I. I’m saying that’s not what _Socrates_ was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/96 "2007-10-04T16:02:54Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Neither do I. I’m saying that’s not what _Socrates_ was talking about. [/QUOTE] Yeah. I’ll be quiet now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/97 "2007-10-04T16:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] These are not how the actions are generally presented to the viewing public, though, you’d have to admit. (It’s worth noting that those who go around pressuring the viewing public are by default the more fervent/evangelical of the believers.) [/quote] Can’t argue with that! > [@bebert2](#): > > And what conflict are you talking about? I was talking about the meaning of the term “christian values”, to the degree it is best understood. Unless you’re just somewhat randomly saying that you think it’s not rude to try to force your values on somebody if you think you know what’s best, in which case I’ll just point out that the amazing heights of ego that that stance requires are decidedly unhumble, and therefore unchristian. I was clumsily trying to respond to \<\\> and veering off into something else. :smack: If you think of love as a happy emotion toward someone, it feels like a conflict to then point out moral shortcomings (on your own or in response to the sincere question from someone) because it feels like negative emotion. But if love is intelligent and a logical desire, feelings aren’t really the issue. But you’re right, ultimately I’m only responsible for my own morality. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/98 "2007-10-04T16:37:58Z")
[QUOTE=gigi] Can’t argue with that!I was clumsily trying to respond to \<\\> and veering off into something else. :smack: If you think of love as a happy emotion toward someone, it feels like a conflict to then point out moral shortcomings (on your own or in response to the sincere question from someone) because it feels like negative emotion. But if love is intelligent and a logical desire, feelings aren’t really the issue. But you’re right, ultimately I’m only responsible for my own morality. [/QUOTE] Maybe we need a thread to learn about love and other emotions? ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/99 "2007-10-04T17:01:49Z")
I was raised to believe that Christians value forgiveness over revenge, love over hate, kindness and charity over selfishness, and community good over individual desire. I was also taught that, while it is really, really hard to actually achieve such a state of grace, a Christian’s life is to be spent constantly and persistently pursuing it. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/100 "2007-10-04T17:07:26Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Maybe we need a thread to learn about love and other emotions? [/QUOTE] Maybe. I’m always up for learning something new. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397.md?page=6)