# What are Christian principles and values? Do they actually exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397 "2007-10-03T16:08:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/161 "2007-10-10T13:24:00Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Oh, please. Plenty of people have the “spiritual values” of “kill the unbeliever”, “wealth is a sign of God’s favor”, or “hatred is good”. :rolleyes: I don’t **want** unconditional love, since I regard it as both insane and worthless. Unconditional anything is no reflection on me, which robs it of any satisfaction or meaning; and unconditional anything is by definition detached from reality, so it’s crazy. And someone who is **always** “happy, at peace with yourself and the world, and enjoying life whatever it brings” is a sociopath. It takes a truly warped personality to be happy **no matter what**. Nor do I consider love to be anything but another emotion, neither good nor bad. “Unconditional love” is your obsession, not mine. Nor is it the desire of any number of other people. [/QUOTE] No, it takes someone with a larger picture of what is happening. Things are not always as they seem. But if you try to live in love you will see that larger picture. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/162 "2007-10-10T13:47:20Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] To those still posting in this thread ( **cosmosdan** , **kanicbird** , **Monavis** ): **What are Christian principles and values? Do they actually exist?** I’ve read thru this, and I’m not sure I perceived what your answer to the thread title would be. Apologies if I missed the post where you supplied your answer to this (quite a likely possibility on my part). Do you have succinct replies to the question? Thank you! [/QUOTE] We did get off on a tangent but I thought the essentials were covered although not to a final definite conclusion on such a subjective subject. Following the OP several people pointed out that just because values aren’t unique to Christianity doesn’t mean they aren’t Christian values. So, while “love they neighbor” may be taught by other religions and was taught before JC preached it by Buddha , it is still a Christian value. I have conceded this point as true so, Christian values in a non unique sense do exist. The point I tried to stress and was discussed is that often the terms, Christian Values, or Christian principles, is used in modern language to indicate that adding “Christian” somehow improves the value and is used to infer that Christianity somehow is the keeper of the flame when it comes to values and principles above all other groups. When you hear the phrase “this country was founded on Christian principles” does it seem as if it’s stressing "with liberty and justice for all"or it is stressing the Christian bit? My question is what does the term Christian add in descriptive value to values and principles? IMHO not a thing. When used among Christians speaking to Christians it seems relatively harmless. When used by Christians speaking to non Christians it is used to infer the superiority of Christianity which IMO, is one thing that clearly does not exist. **Der Trihs** made a valuable point by noting that many recognized Christian leaders demonstrate some values and principles that many people consider negative or even downright hateful. Should we at least consider these when weighing the usefulness of those terms? I think so. If we can’t tell if Christian values are negative or positive then aren’t those two terms pretty much information free and meaningless? In a broad in general way we know that “brotherly love” and “turn the other cheek” etc might be seen as Christian principles but when we get down to really thinking about the impact of those terms as used in modern language do they really have any meaning when it comes to a discussion of actual values and principles or are they used more to stress a particular religion? IMO, obviously the latter. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/163 "2007-10-10T13:50:34Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] **RT** the scriptural support that demons guide human destiny, is **based on scripture** along the lines that man chose his path, but God provides his steps, and that God delegates, and empowers those who He delegates to. The theory is the demons are the ones that guide our steps. As not all angels have fallen, it is possible that not all demons are falled (demons being different then angels). As for Socrates daemon not beign evil, from Socrates came Arstotal \ from Arstotal came Plato, and the theory of the world soul, a basic of many occult practices that lead many away from God. [/QUOTE] bolding mine biblical cite? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/164 "2007-10-10T13:59:23Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I would disagree with this, it is usually easy to determine the leading of the Holy Spirit, but agree that sometimes it is hard to determine the difference when lead by one’s conscience. [/QUOTE] Do you think so? How do you determine the leading of the HS? I understand feeling strongly led toward something but I’d be reluctant to assert that it’s by the HS. Sometimes that inner voice can be very subtle. Sometimes it might be our own personal preferences and desires strongly moving us. So how is it that you find it easy? Let’s also separate two things. How do we tell when we are personally moved by the spirit? How do we tell when others are moved by the spirit? When my friend tells me “the Holy Spirit led me do this, or say this” should I just accept it or should I be a little skeptical? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/165 "2007-10-10T15:13:31Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] You argue that Christian values and principles exist because all of Christianity’s principles are identical to those used by other religions, and that Christianity adds nothing unique to them. I don’t believe that Christianity does share all its values with any other religion or philosophy; I’d certainly be interested to hear of any non-Chirstian source that lists _all_ Christian principles, as opposed to just some of them. But if such a source exists, so what? Do we say that there’s no such thing as McDonalds’ food because every item on their menu also exists independently of McDonalds? Do Levis jeans not exist because Levis added nothing unique to jeans? Things exist if they exist, even if similar things exist elsewhere. [/QUOTE] I’ve already conceded earlier that Christianity does contain values and principles that are not unique and yes, it is semantically correct to call these Christian values and principles. My more nuanced point is explained as well. Please read my recent response to **Qadgop** and feel free to comment. Since you seem to think Christianity does not share all it’s values and principles with other religions then perhaps you could list a few that you think are clearly uniquely Christian. I’d be interested in your view on that. > [@](#): > > I believe that all the major points are contained within the Sermon on the Mount. The Beatitudes are a list of Christians’ most important values, and Jesus laid out more specific principles during the remainder of the speech. > > Major values: piety, self-awareness, humility, mercy, purity of heart, desire for peace, willingness to carry burdens. > > Principles: 1. Dedicate yourself to your fellow humans. as captured in “whatever you do unto others you do unto me”, this is a fine principle but not unique. > [@](#): > > 1. Live a righteous life at all times, in such a way that others will see your righteousness In general I get what you mean but we clearly see that even Christians do not agree on what is or isn’t righteous. > [@](#): > > . 3. Know and obey the laws of God. Also not unique. Which Holy Book or books should I read in order to know them. Just the Bible? Which Christian leader should I let interpret the Bible for me and tell me what God’s laws are. Fred Phelps? Jim Wallis? They’re pretty different. > [@](#): > > 1. Eliminate anger. Since Jesus failed to do this I think you might be off on this one. I think the term might be “be slow to anger” > [@](#): > > 1. Be chaste, and when married be faithful. ok chaste being celibate or just selective and sincere? > [@](#): > > 1. Do not claim to be one of God’s favorites. I think major religions have a real problem with this. It’s hard to totally embrace one religions teachings without somehow thinking “since our doctrine is more pleasing to God, he must like us best” > [@](#): > > 1. Forgive those who do wrong to you. 8. Love all people. 9. Do good deeds because you desire to do them, not because you want praise from other people. All very nice and not unique. IMO truly forgiving and learning to love those who irritate you is a huge challenge that takes a lifetime of practice. There’s a couple of guys at work that challenge me almost daily. > [@](#): > > 1. Pray regularly according to Jesus’ instructions. I think this might be doctrine rather than a principle but YMMV > [@](#): > > 1. Don’t hoard money, but rather be charitable. 12. Do not obsess over earthly things such as food and clothing. Nice and nice > [@](#): > > 1. Do not judge others. IMO this is too simplified. I think the principle is to be careful not to judge others harshly because you will be judged the same way. It seems to me that as humans we must judge and it’s pretty impossible to function without judging. {I guess that would be a subject for a separate thread.} > [@](#): > > 1. Do not waste effort. I didn’t find this in the Sermon on the Mount. Did I miss it? > [@](#): > > 1. Follow God’s plan for your life, rather than your own plan. The big question is who get’s to tell us what God’s plan for our lives is? > [@](#): > > 1. Treat others well. 17. Obey all of God’s teachings. these are repeats. > [@](#): > > I don’t claim this to be a comprehensive list, but I think it covers the more important principles. I appreciate you taking the time to list these. Lot’s of good stuff. Still, I didn’t see one principle that is uniquely Christian, and my point stands. If all these principles can be found in other religions and philosophies then for the sake of unity and productive communication among a diverse mankind, perhaps we should address the principles themselves and leave of a label that only serves to divide people. Does the added descriptor of “Christian” to words like values and principles help us understand those values any more clearly? Does it move a dialog forward when speaking to non Christians or is it a barrier? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/166 "2007-10-10T15:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] You’re moving the goalposts, there. There probably aren’t any principles or values which are _uniquely_ Christian. But there are values which are Christian, and also Jewish, and Hindu, and Confucian, and… [/QUOTE] True enough, but by calling them christian values, as opposed to simply _values_, you’re implying they belong more to one group than to the rest of us, or that somehow they were invented by christians. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/167 "2007-10-10T15:52:27Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] True enough, but by calling them christian values, as opposed to simply _values_, you’re implying they belong more to one group than to the rest of us, or that somehow they were invented by christians. [/QUOTE] Or at least are improved upon or are somehow superior because of the Christian brand label. I think it also matters who is talking to who. If a preacher is giving a sermon to a group of Christians then a term like Christian values may not be intended that way. When Christians use that term in a public forum to an audience they know includes non Christians then I thinks it’s divisive in the way you describe. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/168 "2007-10-10T20:57:56Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] bolding mine biblical cite? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Proverbs 16:9] In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. [/QUOTE] -NIV ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/169 "2007-10-10T21:27:45Z")
[QUOTE=RT] No, I mean, how can you tell that the world soul was an idea that came from the demon, [/QUOTE] Man has no spiritual discernment on his own and has to come from external sources. Those sources are either of God or demonic (using the power that God allowed them to have). Due to the world soul’s simularity to some modern day occult practices, I place it in the demonic realm. > [@](#): > > I still don’t think the world soul is incompatible with Christianity. Applying occult beliefs into Christianity is usually very problematic to say the least. > [@](#): > > Ok. So why couldn’t it apply to demons today? Are you saying why can’t there be a ‘good’ demon today? Part of the reason is there is no indwelling of God in demons, so they have no way to know the will of God, so can’t do good. The other reason is that they are doing the work of Satan as he plans for humanity. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/170 "2007-10-10T21:34:20Z")
[QUOTE=cosmodan] Do you think so? How do you determine the leading of the HS? I understand feeling strongly led toward something but I’d be reluctant to assert that it’s by the HS. Sometimes that inner voice can be very subtle. Sometimes it might be our own personal preferences and desires strongly moving us. So how is it that you find it easy? [/QUOTE] Ok let me rephrase it, the supernatural leading are very easy to tell - those things just don’t come from humans, or for that matter demons. But other things may be the Holy Spirit or just may be the flesh. > [@](#): > > When my friend tells me “the Holy Spirit led me do this, or say this” should I just accept it or should I be a little skeptical? It depends on where you and they are spiritually ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/171 "2007-10-10T21:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Are you saying why can’t there be a ‘good’ demon today? Part of the reason is there is no indwelling of God in demons, so they have no way to know the will of God, so can’t do good. The other reason is that they are doing the work of Satan as he plans for humanity. [/QUOTE] Of course, that assumes that God is good, and that Satan is evil. And since, according to you, “Man has no spiritual discernment on his own and has to come from external sources”, by your own standards you can’t tell which is which. And the God you describe seems anything but good. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/172 "2007-10-10T22:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Ok let me rephrase it, the supernatural leading are very easy to tell - those things just don’t come from humans, or for that matter demons. But other things may be the Holy Spirit or just may be the flesh. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry. This rephrase doesn’t clear things up for me. How exactly are the supernatural leadings easy to tell? What are the other things you speak of that aren’t so easy? > [@](#): > > It depends on where you and they are spiritually Or, as reality demonstrates, where you think you are, where you think they are, and how good they are at convincing you they are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/173 "2007-10-10T23:39:16Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Man has no spiritual discernment on his own and has to come from external sources. Those sources are either of God or demonic (using the power that God allowed them to have). Due to the world soul’s simularity to some modern day occult practices, I place it in the demonic realm. [/quote] I wouldn’t mind a cite for us having no spiritual discernment. Logically, then, between us two the sources of our spiritual discernment could be holy or demonic. For you it could be either, since you might be right but you might be wrong. For me, OTOH, since I don’t believe in God, my spiritual discernment must be solely (or at least majorly) coming from demonic influence. Is this correct? > [@](#): > > Applying occult beliefs into Christianity is usually very problematic to say the least. But this particular one isn’t problematic at all. It’s very easy. World Soul proponent; there is a life force, a substance of animation and truth, which permeates all matter. Christian; there is a life force, a substance of animation and truth, which permeates all matter, and that force is God. See, easy. I’m not suggesting that Christians could find it easy to incorporate it, i’m saying i’ve heard many Christians express that specific idea; that it is already incorporated. Do you not believe God is in all things? That he is the guiding animating force behind all? Is he not that force without which all would be much lesser than it is now? Then you’re a world soul Christian. As I imagine most are. > [@](#): > > Are you saying why can’t there be a ‘good’ demon today? Part of the reason is there is no indwelling of God in demons, so they have no way to know the will of God, so can’t do good. This doesn’t follow. Even if an indwelling of God was required to know his will, it doesn’t mean they couldn’t do his will by accident. But I have another question; I seem to recall that the gift of the Holy Spirit (the indwelling of God in Man, as I understand it) is given only to those who believe. Is this correct? > [@](#): > > The other reason is that they are doing the work of Satan as he plans for humanity. I wouldn’t mind a cite for that being all of them. I would suggest on top of that that Satan’s plan might actually involve some good things happening; indeed, having some, few demons do good would provide him with a level of reasonable doubt that all of them being obviously bad wouldn’t provide. Allow him to tempt more easily, that way. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/174 "2007-10-11T11:12:48Z")
[QUOTE=cosmodan] How exactly are the supernatural leadings easy to tell? [/QUOTE] Things like prophecy are so divine that you know it is the Spirit of God. > [@](#): > > What are the other things you speak of that aren’t so easy? As we learn to walk with God, God will talk to us in our own way, we have to recognize that leading. It is very hard at first to even see it at all. Then as we walk more with Him we align ourselfs with Him, so it becomes easy to follow ourselves after a while because of the strength of the flesh - thinking it is of God due to conditioning. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/175 "2007-10-11T11:32:36Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I wouldn’t mind a cite for us having no spiritual discernment. [/QUOTE] You can’t prove a negative, but science has found 5+ senses non have been found to have anything to do with sensing the spirit realm. > [@](#): > > Logically, then, between us two the sources of our spiritual discernment could be holy or demonic. For you it could be either, since you might be right but you might be wrong. For me, OTOH, since I don’t believe in God, my spiritual discernment must be solely (or at least majorly) coming from demonic influence. Is this correct? I wouldn’t rule out influence of God’s Spirit in your life. God may be leading you to Him, or guiding you to others for His purpose. If the spirit was leading you into destructive activities I’d say that it would be demonic. > [@](#): > > But this particular one isn’t problematic at all. It’s very easy. I have seen problems with others linking occult to Christianity, I personally think it’s a dangerious idea and I don’t want to go there. > [@](#): > > Even if an indwelling of God was required to know his will, it doesn’t mean they couldn’t do his will by accident. In a weird way they are doing God’s will by accident. God judges the actions by the heart however. > [@](#): > > I seem to recall that the gift of the Holy Spirit (the indwelling of God in Man, as I understand it) is given only to those who believe. Is this correct? This is my understanding > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t mind a cite for that being all of them. I would suggest on top of that that Satan’s plan might actually involve some good things happening; indeed, having some, few demons do good would provide him with a level of reasonable doubt that all of them being obviously bad wouldn’t provide. Allow him to tempt more easily, that way. Demons appearing to act good to mislead people is deception and is bad. There is only one path of ‘goodness’ and that is of the Love of God, anything else falls short (sins). (after looking again this is not the cite you asked for - but I’m leaving it)The outline of the support is in post 151, again it is too complex and way too time consuming to cite the scriptural support. In post 168 I gave the scripture cite of part of that. A quick way for the rest is to look at the fall. God didn’t just leave us alone, He left us with Satan, who seemed to be entrusted and empowered by God to guide our destiny. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/176 "2007-10-11T12:09:56Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Things like prophecy are so divine that you know it is the Spirit of God. [/QUOTE] Hmmmmm The Bible does warn about false prophets and wolves in lambs clothing. It doesn’t say don’t worry about it, it’s easy. Looking at the state of organized religion including several who believe they have their own prophet I’d say there’s no evidence it’s easy to tell. > [@](#): > > As we learn to walk with God, God will talk to us in our own way, we have to recognize that leading. It is very hard at first to even see it at all. Then as we walk more with Him we align ourselfs with Him, so it becomes easy to follow ourselves after a while because of the strength of the flesh - thinking it is of God due to conditioning. Well yeah, I think I said that already. If we stick just to Christians it’s plain to see that not everyone who thinks they are following the Holy Spirit can be correct. Too many conflicts. > [@](#): > > Matt; 7: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. > > 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? > > 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The point I keep stressing is that it seems clear to me in the NT that although it may not be the works themselves that save us it is only the works that reflect the true spirit within the person and ,there are several passages that indicate we will be judged by and rewarded according to, our works. Not by which label is on our religion, and by the passage above, not even by the name of the person we worship and do works in. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/177 "2007-10-11T12:38:18Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Hmmmmm The Bible does warn about false prophets and wolves in lambs clothing. It doesn’t say don’t worry about it, it’s easy. Looking at the state of organized religion including several who believe they have their own prophet I’d say there’s no evidence it’s easy to tell. [/QUOTE] I was talking about the Holy Spirit prophetizing though you, not through others. > [@](#): > > If we stick just to Christians it’s plain to see that not everyone who thinks they are following the Holy Spirit can be correct. Too many conflicts While there is deception of the enemy withing Christianity, the Holy Spirit will also cause apparent contradictions. Things we can’t understand can coexist, but they do as anything is possible with God. One such apparent contradiction is free will /predetermination, another one is that God must call you, but seek and you shall find. > [@](#): > > The point I keep stressing is that it seems clear to me in the NT that although it may not be the works themselves that save us it is only the works that reflect the true spirit within the person and ,there are several passages that indicate we will be judged by and rewarded according to, our works. I agree with what you state. > [@](#): > > Not by which label is on our religion, and by the passage above, not even by the name of the person we worship and do works in. Using and working in the Name of Jesus is using the power of God, I guess it depends on what you use that power for that would matter. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/178 "2007-10-11T13:08:00Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I was talking about the Holy Spirit prophetizing though you, not through others. [/QUOTE] I see. I’m not so sure that’s easy either. I’ve had some pretty powerful experiences but that I could call spiritual , but I wouldn’t say the Holy Spirit visited me and I had a vision. That’s just me. Have you prophesied in the spirit? > [@](#): > > While there is deception of the enemy withing Christianity, the Holy Spirit will also cause apparent contradictions. Things we can’t understand can coexist, but they do as anything is possible with God. One such apparent contradiction is free will /predetermination, another one is that God must call you, but seek and you shall find. I agree with these. There are things that may appear to contradict that may just be a lack of complete understanding. In those cases I think it’s good for people to admit they don’t really know and are going with their own judgment rather than say “I’m following God’s will” I think that acknowledgment is quite important. There are other examples of conflicts that are not quite so innocuous and harmless. Women being ordained caused a split in the church I used to belong to. Christian attitudes about homosexuals and abortion seem to be their own personal attitudes rather than the leading of the spirit yet they will present it as if they know the mind of God. > [@](#): > > Using and working in the Name of Jesus is using the power of God, I guess it depends on what you use that power for that would matter. Not according to the verse I just quoted. Are you saying people can use the power of God to work iniquity? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/179 "2007-10-11T14:26:58Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Not according to the verse I just quoted. Are you saying people can use the power of God to work iniquity? [/QUOTE] Yes, human strength is power from God, I can use that strength to murder someone. The Spirit of God allows the casting out of demons, if used but that person is not helped and given the gift of the Holy Spirit that demon will come back with 7 worse spirits. > [@](#): > > Christian attitudes about homosexuals and abortion seem to be their own personal attitudes rather than the leading of the spirit yet they will present it as if they know the mind of God. I’d agree with these. Even if the person were prevented from ever engaging in a immoral sex act, or the murder by abortion they will not be saved by that. The person must be lead to God’s Love, and then God can work on that person in His way. The hatred of the people who do these acts are not of God. > [@](#): > > Have you prophesied in the spirit? Too personal to go beyond a simple yes on a public board. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397/180 "2007-10-14T19:36:23Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I’ve already conceded earlier that Christianity does contain values and principles that are not unique and yes, it is semantically correct to call these Christian values and principles. My more nuanced point is explained as well. Please read my recent response to **Qadgop** and feel free to comment. Since you seem to think Christianity does not share all it’s values and principles with other religions then perhaps you could list a few that you think are clearly uniquely Christian. I’d be interested in your view on that. … I appreciate you taking the time to list these. Lot’s of good stuff. Still, I didn’t see one principle that is uniquely Christian, and my point stands. If all these principles can be found in other religions and philosophies then for the sake of unity and productive communication among a diverse mankind, perhaps we should address the principles themselves and leave of a label that only serves to divide people. Does the added descriptor of “Christian” to words like values and principles help us understand those values any more clearly? Does it move a dialog forward when speaking to non Christians or is it a barrier? [/QUOTE] Christian principles are, as I said, the ones taught by Jesus. I am, of course, well aware of Christians who don’t practice all of those principles. In a religion whose adherents numbers in the billions, that would be impossible to avoid. The principles are Christian as long as they are the prevailing ones among the Christian community worldwide. All followers of Jesus make up the body of Christ, which is one body. As for why it’s important to maintian this collection of principles and values as “Christian principles and values”, it’s because this collection produces different results that other religions or the absense of religion. Christian societies develop differently than other societies. I believe that this is because the individuals in Christian societies behave have different goals and standards than those in other societies. Merely claiming a certain virtue in common doesn’t mean that everyone practices it the same way. For instance, one can claim to promote “modesty” by forcing all women to wear burqas, or by forbidding women to even leave their homes. Or one can practice modesty as an attitude that society expects of all individuals at all times, to be displayed through individual choices behavior. Christian society views it that way. (And Christian civilization has always allowed a greater role in society for women than other civilizations typically have.) Hence merely saying that we all agree on modesty is an oversimplification. (And of course there are people today who no longer view modesty as desirable at all, but that’s another debate.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-and-values-do-they-actually-exist/421397.md?page=10)