# What are Christian Principles? Do they exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649 "2011-11-21T15:29:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/21 "2011-11-23T00:02:15Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Bravo, gentlemen. You’ve just refuted a point that, um, nobody here ever made. One that was strongly implied by what you were saying, and is a standard Christian claim. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/22 "2011-11-23T00:08:45Z")
Other than yourself, you mean? If you’re going to point out that pre-Christian religions preached the Golden Rule but then weren’t all that great about putting it into practice, isn’t it relevant that the Christians likewise weren’t all that great about putting it into practice either? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/23 "2011-11-23T00:27:06Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The Christian principles would be those things that are the central ideas of Christianity, right? Things like being mindful of the poor and downtrodden, a lack of focus on wealth accumulation (even to the point of selling off any wealth you’ve accumulated in the past), and dropping any family ties in order to follow Jesus. > > Those things are just so obviously what our country was founded upon - how can anybody question it? Abandoning your family is not a Christian principle-those who fail to provide for their family are condenmned as being worse than infidels. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I listened to a web cast of Politichicks with Victoria Jackson and three other conservative ladies. It was painful. One lady mentioned the old meme I’ve heard for years > > “This country was founded on Christian principles” > For the purpose of this thread I’m not discussing the founding of this nation but simply on the existence of Christian principles. > > IMO, there’s no such thing. There is Christian doctrine and dogma but there are no principles that are uniquely Christian. My position is that any of the principles of living that Christ taught about our general behavior in society are also taught in other religions and the principles were around and being taught long before Jesus supposedly taught them. > > Am I correct or incorrect? Am I missing something? Christian principles means also the unique doctrines of Christianity such as that the only way human beings can be redeemed from sin was through Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/24 "2011-11-23T00:45:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Other than yourself, you mean? If you’re going to point out that pre-Christian religions preached the Golden Rule but then weren’t all that great about putting it into practice, isn’t it relevant that the Christians likewise weren’t all that great about putting it into practice either? Religions, plural? Which ones? What heroes of the Old Testament were lauded for their kindness to non-relatives and non-tribesmen? What New Testament heroes were given a free pass to cheat their brothers out of their inheritance, to pimp their wives out to Pharaoh’s men, to kill their rivals and steal their women, to bond their grandson into slavery? Aside from Judaism (because you mentioned multiple religions), which other pre-Christian religions made any connection at all between ethics and theology? You’ve got issues with Christianity? So do I. Some of the same ones as you, actually. But if pairing personal decency with religious faith wasn’t Christ’s innovation, may I ask what you think his significance to world culture was? Because I don’t think any major world religion was based on some magic tricks at a wedding. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/25 "2011-11-23T00:58:16Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > But if pairing personal decency with religious faith wasn’t Christ’s innovation, may I ask what you think his significance to world culture was? He lent his name to a rabidly aggressive religion that conquered & slaughtered its way to being one of the world’s most numerous religions. Intolerance and aggression are the two most historically & culturally important features of Christianity; without those it would at most be some relatively harmless local sect. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/26 "2011-11-23T01:00:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He lent his name to a rabidly aggressive religion that conquered & slaughtered its way to being one of the world’s most numerous religions. Intolerance and aggression are the two most historically & culturally important features of Christianity; without those it would at most be some relatively harmless local sect. Its most important features were proclaiming a brotherhood of man. And Roman pagan religion was spiritually bankrupt by 300, only Christianity could offer a real path rather than just Oriental mystical mummery. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/27 "2011-11-23T01:22:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its most important features were proclaiming a brotherhood of man. And Roman pagan religion was spiritually bankrupt by 300, only Christianity could offer a real path rather than just Oriental mystical mummery. Yeah, it could offer Middle Eastern mystical mummery. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/28 "2011-11-23T01:34:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its most important features were proclaiming a brotherhood of man Nonsense; empty words at best. The overarching theme of Christianity has always been one of division; the True Believers, and the Unbelievers. And the former trying to destroy, convert or enslave the latter. You might as well try to characterize some empire like Rome as standing for the Brotherhood of Man because they kept trying to conquer everyone. Like Christianity, they wanted everyone to be united; under their thumb, and no matter how much blood they had to spill. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And Roman pagan religion was spiritually bankrupt by 300, only Christianity could offer a real path rather than just Oriental mystical mummery. :rolleyes: As if Christianity isn’t “mystical mummery”. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/29 "2011-11-23T01:39:00Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Abandoning your family is not a Christian principle-those who fail to provide for their family are condenmned as being worse than infidels. But: Mark 10:29-30 Matthew 19:29 Luke 14:33, 18:29-30 would indicate that this was not the teaching of Christ…is it “Christian?” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/30 "2011-11-23T03:32:07Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > You’ve got issues with Christianity? So do I. Some of the same ones as you, actually. But if pairing personal decency with religious faith wasn’t Christ’s innovation, may I ask what you think his significance to world culture was? Because I don’t think any major world religion was based on some magic tricks at a wedding. The post right above yours anticipates and answers your question: [QUOTE=Qin Shi Huangdi] Christian principles means also the unique doctrines of Christianity such as that the only way human beings can be redeemed from sin was through Christ. [/QUOTE] It’s the perfect sales pitch: you face eternal damnation, or neverending paradise, in the afterlife – which means there are no falsifiable promises about payoff or punishment here on earth, where God only ever works in mysterious ways – such that _ **infinite** _ incentives hinge on whether you declare yourself for a Judaism offshoot that likewise strips away the inconvenient down-to-earth stuff: delicious bacon is back on the menu, painful circumcisions are unnecessary, you simply accept otherworldly forgiveness and move on, spreading the word to folks who spread the word. That’s a _ **devastating** _ little competitor, as world-religion memes go: it doesn’t involve a rain god who sometimes doesn’t deliver, there’s no reason to question your faith when you see an unbeliever enjoy a long and happy life before serenely passing away; there’s little to it beyond Pascal’s wager. (Which often gets derided hereabouts for being useless given hypothetical religions that offer similar stakes for similar terms – but _ **were** _ any other religions selling that back when? Or were they all offering comically less, in risk and reward, while failing to offer a pat explanation for why a deity sure didn’t seem to be intervening as expected when expected?) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/31 "2011-11-23T14:17:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I agree. If someone says they follow “Christian principles” or have “Christian values”, what does that tell you about them? Little to nothing. That can mean anything from feeding the poor, to subjugating women, to pacifism, to thinking the unbelievers should be exterminated, to “love your neighbor”, to “monitor your neighbor for Sin”. On this we agree. When someone says “I’m a Christian” it tells me zero about their character as a person. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/32 "2011-11-23T14:26:26Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > I like to look at the Old Testament as an evolution, over time, of what people (well, a narrow slice of them anyway) considered virtuous. The heroes of Genesis were, to modern sensibilities, quite dickish, as they were rough men in a rough era. But Noah, Abraham, Jacob and Lot weren’t just clever protagonists; they were singled out as exemplars of what God likes and finds favorable. With Exodus and Leviticus, we get more comprehensible guidelines of how to live a virtuous life. Later, David gets special dispensation to kill the gentile men and steal their virgin daughters _en masse_, so these rules are in a state of flux. “The Golden Rule” is in scant evidence for most of the Old Testament, and it generally doesn’t apply to outsiders. > > In the rest of the world, pagan gods were pretty uninvolved in mortal affairs. Zeus and Ahura Mazda didn’t do a lot to reward the virtuous or punish the wicked; they had bigger fish to fry. It would be a rare Egyptian yammering about his “personal relationship” with Osiris. Whatever the ancients did to promote social order, people’s status in the afterlife was pretty unconnected to how kind they were to strangers. Buddha taught incredibly similar principles of living and our treatment of others, 600 years before Jesus did. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/33 "2011-11-23T14:33:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Buddha taught incredibly similar principles of living and our treatment of others, 600 years before Jesus did. Which beats Confucius, who IIRC was teaching the golden rule maybe 500 years before Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/34 "2011-11-23T14:36:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Christian principles means also the unique doctrines of Christianity such as that the only way human beings can be redeemed from sin was through Christ. I don’t see that as a principle at all. I see it as doctrine or dogma. It certainly doesn’t apply to the context of the phrase. A nation made up primarily of Christians , went out of it’s way to keep religion out of the government. No Christian doctrine there. That’s why I object to the term and the idea that it is often repeated and accepted without really being thought through. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/35 "2011-11-23T14:45:03Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Religions, plural? Which ones? What heroes of the Old Testament were lauded for their kindness to non-relatives and non-tribesmen? What New Testament heroes were given a free pass to cheat their brothers out of their inheritance, to pimp their wives out to Pharaoh’s men, to kill their rivals and steal their women, to bond their grandson into slavery? Aside from Judaism (because you mentioned multiple religions), which other pre-Christian religions made any connection at all between ethics and theology? > > You’ve got issues with Christianity? So do I. Some of the same ones as you, actually. But if pairing personal decency with religious faith wasn’t Christ’s innovation, may I ask what you think his significance to world culture was? Because I don’t think any major world religion was based on some magic tricks at a wedding. The fact that Christianity became a world religion doesn’t indicate innovation at all. IMO world religions contain a lot of the same elements and reflect mans common quest for answers,and meaning and how they connect to the world around them. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/36 "2011-11-24T01:29:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Which beats Confucius, who IIRC was teaching the golden rule maybe 500 years before Jesus. I asked for religions that mandated it. Confucianism isn’t a religion. And as every Buddhist I’ve ever met keeps reminding me, neither is Buddhism. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/37 "2011-11-24T01:38:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The fact that Christianity became a world religion doesn’t indicate innovation at all. IMO world religions contain a lot of the same elements and reflect mans common quest for answers,and meaning and how they connect to the world around them. I understand what you’re saying, but… Green activists eschew pork. So do Muslims. But they do so for profoundly different reasons. Plenty of philosophers prior to Christ taught that empathy and considerate behavior were good common sense, but none of them claimed that it was essential to gaining favor with God. Short-changing foreigners was never endorsed outright, but it wasn’t forbidden either. Goofus and Gallant existed in some form in every culture, but the Good Samaritan didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/38 "2011-11-25T03:27:11Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > I understand what you’re saying, but… Green activists eschew pork. So do Muslims. But they do so for profoundly different reasons. Plenty of philosophers prior to Christ taught that empathy and considerate behavior were good common sense, but none of them claimed that it was essential to gaining favor with God. Short-changing foreigners was never endorsed outright, but it wasn’t forbidden either. Goofus and Gallant existed in some form in every culture, but the Good Samaritan didn’t. I’m pretty sure you’re incorrect about the good Samaritan. As I said, Buddha taught 600 years prior to Jesus. As far as gaining favor with God, that’s kind of my point. That doesn’t strike me as a principle , but more doctrine. The actual principles were around long before Jesus , which means , while Christianity may have principles in common with other religions and philosophies, there really aren’t any uniquely Christian principles. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/39 "2011-11-25T06:56:27Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m pretty sure you’re incorrect about the good Samaritan. As I said, Buddha taught 600 years prior to Jesus. As far as gaining favor with God, that’s kind of my point. That doesn’t strike me as a principle , but more doctrine. The actual principles were around long before Jesus , which means , while Christianity may have principles in common with other religions and philosophies, there really aren’t any uniquely Christian principles. Unsatisfying as it is, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I semi-agree whether Buddha was a religious figure in this context. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649/40 "2011-11-25T14:14:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I asked for religions that mandated it. Confucianism isn’t a religion. And as every Buddhist I’ve ever met keeps reminding me, neither is Buddhism. Try again. As I’d already alluded to, Christianity was late on the scene compared to the rabbi Hillel – who boiled down the Torah for a gentile who asked him for a standing-on-one-foot summary: _“What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”_ He presumably did so because Thou Shalt Not Steal and Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness and the rest drew no distinction between locals and outsiders; they were merely delivered from on high, by God’s designated lawgiver, in the absolutist language of universals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-christian-principles-do-they-exist/603649.md?page=3)