# What are Democrats doing to contain Green Party spoiler candidates this time around? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676 "2003-12-08T02:31:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/81 "2003-12-10T16:51:47Z")
Stonebow and spectrum, your biases are showing. I proposed three concrete, environmentally friendly things the Dems could do that are attractive to the political center, probably even to those slightly to the right of center. Most polls show that the center supports the Clean Water Act, is opposed to logging in protected lands, and opposes driling in the ANWR. Unless you have some cites to the contrary, I’m going to have to ascribe your opposition to these measures as simple prejudice, along the lines of Homer Simpson who insisted on plugging in all his Christmas lights because, “When we conserve electricity, the environmentalists win!” In fact, here’s a cite about how alarmed a lot hunters (many of whom are traditional Repubs) are alarmed about the Bush approach to the Clean Water Act: [http://archive.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/11/20/gristb/index.html](http://archive.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/11/20/gristb/index.html) C’mon, guys, the environment is not a leftish issue. It’s straight down the center. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/82 "2003-12-10T17:45:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > winning the popular vote is, to a large degree, irrelevant. Candidates campaign in order to win the electoral college. If the popular vote mattered, they’d campaign differently and we just don’t know what the outcome would have been in that scenario. The EC has continued to exist into modern times only because, in every election from 1880 to 1996, its outcome coincided with the popular vote. We’ve been lucky. And IMHO, it would likely be gone by now if the result had been reversed in 2000: I don’t have the cites handy, but in the threads here following the 2000 election, there were cites to the GOP’s plans to try to get electors to change their votes, had they won the popular vote and lost the EC. The GOP would have been ‘mad as hell’ at the EC, and the Dems (once the EC voted for Gore) would have shrugged their shoulders and said, yeah, it’s a dumb system - let’s get rid of it. > [@](#): > > And if Bush did govern further to the right than his campaign indicated, it would appear that the 2002 Congressional elections pretty much gave it the stamp of approval. A year ago, the War on Terror and its bastard stepchild, the imminent War Against Iraq, were dominating the scene. It was a special case. (Besides, how many Congressional seats changed hands?) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/83 "2003-12-10T18:07:27Z")
> [@](#): > > RTF wrote: > A year ago, the War on Terror and its bastard stepchild, the imminent War Against Iraq, were dominating the scene. It was a special case. (Besides, how many Congressional seats changed hands?) There are always some sort of special circumstances that can make one think any election was an anomoly. The truth is we’ll never what might have happened, we only know what did happen. I don’t remember how many Congressional seats changed hands, and the exact number doesn’t really matter. What matters is that the Pubs won more net seats than the Dems. If the American elctorate disaproved of Bush’s policies, it almost certainly would have gone the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/84 "2003-12-10T19:00:53Z")
Weeeell, I don’t know if I would take a Congressional election necessarily as a ringing endorsement (or rebuke) of the party in power. Local issues, personalities, scandals, inertia, etc. might play a bigger part. I don’t think you’ll hear the average American Democrat say, “Well, Republican Goodolguy has really helped with that school funding thing last year, and I like the new dam and that Japanese company that opened the new factory and all, and his wife was so nice to those kids at the orphanage, but I’m voting for Bobby Newface anyway because I want to teach that idiot Bush a lesson.” OK, that’s exaggerated, but you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/85 "2003-12-10T19:16:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*C’mon, guys, the environment is not a leftish issue. It’s straight down the center. \*\* I agree, and perhaps I am biased. However, the same points you are making were made before the 2000 election, to no avail. Was there anyone that thought that Gore and Bush were even in the same ballpark on environmental issues? But somehow, Gore was not environmental ENOUGH. That’s what gets me. not the demands of the far left, but the fact that they are not willing to bend, even knowing that the alternative is worse by a factor of 100…like I said, it’s just misplaced idealism. Environmentalism should be a center issue…but it’s not. Because to go as far as some people would like, you need to make a trade-off. And those trade-offs often disadvantage people that favor the Right, for good or ill. Business and Industry, those that favor a hands-off approach to regulation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/86 "2003-12-10T19:41:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*I don’t know - what are you willing to commit to in return? \*\* The going rate is one bottle of REALLY nice scotch. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/87 "2003-12-11T02:15:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stonebow \* > **I agree, and perhaps I am biased. However, the same points you are making were made before the 2000 election, to no avail. Was there anyone that thought that Gore and Bush were even in the same ballpark on environmental issues.** There’s a huge difference between being hit in the face with a fist for four years, and being THREATENED with being hit in the face with a fist for four years. In short, after four years of EXPERIENCING Bush’s environmental initiatives, all but the most rabid Greens are gonna see the light and vote to stop that fist from slamming into their face. Prior to Bush’s election, they didn’t have any direct experience of it. Unless Lieberman gets the nod, any Dem is gonna look GREAT to most Greens compared to Bush. In short, I think Bush has guaranteed there won’t be a repeat of the Green vote next year. ---
**Author:** ![ikderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8dc957/32.png) [@ikderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ikderk)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/88 "2003-12-11T07:35:02Z")
I just read the “TIME” article that focused on G.W. Bush. Currently, the country is beginning to polarize and the middle voters are moving toward the sides. Most elections are described as 40-40-20, where 40% are with you, 40% are against you, and there are 20% that are unsure. This election is about 45-45-10 with the middle shrinking. What is the point of all this? There is no vast middle in the 2004 Election. In fact, the key thing is support from your core group. That is why both parties are not making policies or ideas that appeal to the middle but trying to get support from their vital supporters. Bush wants support from military and their families, that’s why he went to Iraq and the battleship. The Dems want people pissed at Bush, and Bush-bashing gathers attention. Whenever a candidate attacks Bush, they get a story on the news. What is key in this election is holding on to that core group. Greens might find themselves part of a shifted Democratic party. My advice: If you are in a swing state or key state (FL or CA), vote Dem b/c we need your support to block Bush. It is better for all of us on the left. If youare in a solid Dem or Bush state (like me in CO), vote Green b/c then they can get support, federal funding, and a real shot in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/89 "2003-12-11T09:13:25Z")
> [@](#): > > If youare in a solid Dem or Bush state (like me in CO), vote Green b/c then they can get support, federal funding, and a real shot in 2008. Never happen. If they couldn’t make it in 2000, they certainly can’t make it in a post 9/11 world where Chomskites and other such people look even more out of touch with American political reality than ever before. Third parties are simply not viable means by which to get things done on the national U.S. scene. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/90 "2003-12-11T15:56:57Z")
Ralph Nader is making a speech in Princeton today and will decide whether to run again next month. The coverage is ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/91 "2003-12-11T15:58:47Z")
Ralph Nader is making a speech in Princeton today and will decide whether to run again next month. The coverage is [not flattering.](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/grind/index.html) Even the snark in the last sentence shows what a row Nader and the Greens will have to hoe in '04. And hey, Wes Clark on THE DAILY SHOW!! ---
**Author:** ![jormundgondir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@jormundgondir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jormundgondir)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/92 "2003-12-11T21:05:46Z")
“It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.”. — Jonathan Swift ---
**Author:** ![Molson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Molson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molson)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/93 "2003-12-12T18:05:43Z")
Al Gore got most of the Green Party votes. That’s why Green did much better in the local elections than the national. But it wouldn’t have mattered if it were any other democratic country - the Greens and Dems would have made a coalition in the legislative branch and made Gore PM. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/94 "2003-12-12T18:54:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Molson \* > \*\*Al Gore got most of the Green Party votes. > That’s why Green did much better in the local elections than the national. > But it wouldn’t have mattered if it were any other democratic country - the Greens and Dems would have made a coalition in the legislative branch and made Gore PM. \*\* Er… no. That would have involved the Greens doing well enough in any district whatsoever that they would have gained a seat in this mythical national parliament. Unless, of course, you’re advocating that seating in this national parliament is determined by nation-wide voting, with each party being distributed seats in a direct proportion to their national vote, which would certainly ensure a government that gave a damn about something more than mere patronage, I’m sure. It’s a prisoner’s dilemna: it’s not worth voting for the Green Party on any level until such time that enough people are willing to vote for them that a plurality can be reached. But until people start voting Green, no one will know when that magic threshold will be reached. Unless you look at 2000’s numbers and realize that the Green party is 20-40 years of constant campaigning, awareness raising, and carefull discussion and focus on the issues before they become something other than “those wacko fringe WTO protestors.” ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/95 "2003-12-13T01:43:34Z")
Cite for **Brutus** : [http://www.msnbc.com/news/988787.asp?0cl=c3](http://www.msnbc.com/news/988787.asp?0cl=c3) Juicy quote, from the end of the article: > [@](#): > > “To me, it doesn’t make sense,” said Carl Rappold, 51, a rancher on the Front who has always voted Republican but said he will not vote again for Bush. “We got all these species clustered in a little bit of space. It is almost like a last stand. And now we are going to develop it for a handful of gas?” Bush is an extremist on the environment, not so much because he cares about it one way or the other, but because he’s an energy extremist: an oil man who really believes the world revolves around that commodity. It’s why, I’m convinced, he went to war in Iraq. It could be his undoing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676/96 "2003-12-13T15:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Evil Captor_ - > **Brutus, I do not think I owe you a cite as this is a debate about HOW to contain the Greens, and the portion of my post you objected to is partisan wrangling and would only lead to thread drift, which may well be your goal.** Your goal? You posted it, not **Brutus** , alleging that it was factual. Now you are trying to weasel out of proving it. Although I agree that what you posted was “partisan wrangling”. So the goal of “thread drift” must have been yours, not **Brutus** ’, since this is a thread ONLY about the Greens, and has nothing to do with Republicans. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-democrats-doing-to-contain-green-party-spoiler-candidates-this-time-around/217676.md?page=4)