# What are other countries doing right to prevent mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900 "2017-11-06T17:46:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/21 "2017-11-06T21:28:09Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The US has 9.5 times the gun homicide rate per capita that Canada does. 11 times Finland, 22 times Australia, 33 times New Zealand, 36 times Norway, 60 times the UK. Why do you think that it’s worse to be killed with a gun than with a bomb, a club, poison, a knife, a car, a cliff, a baseball bat, etc.? Why is “gun homicide” its own metric? If gun ownership made gun homicides a larger slice of the pie but reduced the total number of homicides (which it does), then how is that not a success? “Woohoo! I’ve reduced ‘gun homicides’! It only cost me a larger total number of people being murdered per year than if I hadn’t done that!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/22 "2017-11-06T21:33:19Z")
Are you saying that the total homicide rate is higher in those countries than in the US? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/23 "2017-11-06T21:40:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Suppose someone is sadistic, violently hates people, and salivates at the thought of killing people. Which is more likely - that such a person will think, of his or her own accord, “Time to find some victims to kill,” or, “I am a sick, diseased person and need to go seek out some professional treatment over the course of many counseling sessions?” No baby is born who “is sadistic, violently hates people, and salivates at the thought of killing people.” Instead this develops over a couple decades or so. During this time there are often opportunities, which are usually ignored, to make interventions. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/24 "2017-11-06T21:48:04Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Why do you think that it’s worse to be killed with a gun than with a bomb, a club, poison, a knife, a car, a cliff, a baseball bat, etc.? Why is “gun homicide” its own metric? If gun ownership made gun homicides a larger slice of the pie but reduced the total number of homicides (which it does), then how is that not a success? > > “Woohoo! I’ve reduced ‘gun homicides’! It only cost me a larger total number of people being murdered per year than if I hadn’t done that!” This is… not smart. But I’ll indulge you. Why did I talk about gun violence? Because the thread is about gun violence. Does reducing the gun murder rate increase the overall murder rate? No. In fact, the opposite. Of the listen countries, there is a very clear correlation between gun murder rate and murder rate (R^2 of 0.96!) If you leave out the US, because it’s a huge skewing factor, the R^2 is 0.86. Very clear that reduction in gun murders reduces overall murders. People don’t just kill 50 people with screwdrivers instead. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/25 "2017-11-06T21:51:43Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > No baby is born who “is sadistic, violently hates people, and salivates at the thought of killing people.” I would disagree; there are quite a few people who are born this way, but this is GD and not GQ and so I won’t derail the thread further. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/26 "2017-11-06T22:06:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Are you saying that the total homicide rate is higher in those countries than in the US? Well, if he is, I checked, going by [this data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate). For the specific countries mentioned (Canada, Finland, Australia, New Zealand, Norway and the U.K) : U.S. ranked #94 Canada: #158 Finland: #159 Australia: #179 U.K.: #183 New Zealand: #185 Norway: #206 Among those named, the U.S. overall murder rate is triple its nearest competitor; Canada. Not as stark a difference as the relative murder rates using guns, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/27 "2017-11-06T22:38:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The problem with this theory is that many a mentally ill person doesn’t \*want \*treatment. > > Suppose someone is sadistic, violently hates people, and salivates at the thought of killing people. Which is more likely - that such a person will think, of his or her own accord, “Time to find some victims to kill,” or, “I am a sick, diseased person and need to go seek out some professional treatment over the course of many counseling sessions?” This is bonkers. Honestly, this is the playground version of what you think is mental illness. Mental illness will usually start with something like bereavement, social isolation, financial problems, depression. It may or may not evolve, without help. You do not suddenly wake up one morning salivating at the thought of killing. Unlss you live in Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/28 "2017-11-06T22:59:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Among those named, the U.S. overall murder rate is triple its nearest competitor; Canada. Not as stark a difference as the relative murder rates using guns, but there you go. Interesting. In 2016 the UK had 26 shooting murders (5%) and 216 by knifing (37%). ‘Kicking or hitting’ = 18%, then strangulation. > **[Homicide - Office for National Statistics](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2016/homicide)** > > Violent Crime and Sexual Offences statistics from the Crime Survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime I’m surprised there was a murder by gun every two weeks and wonder if some of that was to do with a nasty gang war in Birmingham … ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/29 "2017-11-06T23:09:25Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is bonkers. Honestly, this is the playground version of what you think is mental illness. Mental illness will usually start with something like bereavement, social isolation, financial problems, depression. It may or may not evolve, without help. > > You do not suddenly wake up one morning salivating at the thought of killing. Unlss you live in Hollywood. Hey now! I lived in Hollywood for a while and I’ll have you know I thought about killing a million times less than when I was in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/30 "2017-11-07T00:48:58Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > This is… not smart. > > But I’ll indulge you. Why did I talk about gun violence? Because the thread is about gun violence. > > Does reducing the gun murder rate increase the overall murder rate? No. In fact, the opposite. Of the listen countries, there is a very clear correlation between gun murder rate and murder rate (R^2 of 0.96!) If you leave out the US, because it’s a huge skewing factor, the R^2 is 0.86. Very clear that reduction in gun murders reduces overall murders. People don’t just kill 50 people with screwdrivers instead. Gun ownership (horizontal axis) X Homicide rate (vertical axis) [![](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/no9ocpf4fa049ph/gunsvhomicide.png?dl=0) ](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/no9ocpf4fa049ph/gunsvhomicide.png?dl=0) Polynomial regression of homicide variables (including gun ownership, though there are better ones available): [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19793322&postcount=14](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19793322&postcount=14) The US, I would posit, is an outlier because of our history with slavery and racism. You will note, for example, that South Africa is quite homicide-prone despite very low ownership of guns. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/31 "2017-11-07T02:14:48Z")
The short answer is that gun control works. But it has to go much further than the US has ever been willing to go. Simple handgun bans don’t work, assault rifle bans don’t work. The only way to reduce gun violence through gun control is to put very restrictive limits on who can own a gun and how they may use it. That’s just not on the table here, so we need to talk about what actually has worked in the US to reduce gun violence: aggressive policing and harsh sentencing for people who use guns in the commission of crimes. Both of which the NRA actually supports, both of which have actually coincided with reduced gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/32 "2017-11-07T03:37:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the theory is that he was prevented from going on and shooting additional people at other location(s). I don’t think anyone can really know what his precise plans were after he left the church but it’s certainly a reasonable possibility that he might have murdered additional people if the armed citizen hadn’t intervened. Not everyone was dead, you know. [Sutherland Springs church shooting: An unlikely hero describes the gun battle and 95-mph chase with suspect - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/06/an-unlikely-hero-describes-gun-battle-and-95-mph-chase-with-texas-shooting-suspect/?utm_term=.7bb4251fc7fd)\* The shooter, who authorities identified as Devin Patrick Kelley, first opened fire on the outside of the church just after 11 a.m. with a Ruger assault rifle. Kelley, clad in black tactical gear, then sprayed the building’s inside with bullets. He hastily fled the scene after engaging in a gun battle with Willeford.\* ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/33 "2017-11-07T03:39:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Gun ownership (horizontal axis) X Homicide rate (vertical axis) > > [Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life](https://www.dropbox.com/s/no9ocpf4fa049ph/gunsvhomicide.png?dl=0) > > Polynomial regression of homicide variables (including gun ownership, though there are better ones available): > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19793322&postcount=14](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19793322&postcount=14) > > . Can’t open links. But I guess those charts work equally as accurately if you replace “gun ownership” with “Harry Potter fanfic”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/34 "2017-11-07T03:42:48Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The US has 9.5 times the gun homicide rate per capita that Canada does. 11 times Finland, 22 times Australia, 33 times New Zealand, 36 times Norway, 60 times the UK. > > Blah blah blah, not “mass shootings.” Given that they’re more rare it’s inevitable that anomalies will occur and countries that have far less gun violence will have disproportionate mass shootings. It’s also completely missing the whole point. > > Which is why people point out those kinds of statistics. “gun homicide”- why do machete or bomb murders not count? Anyway the uSA is smack dab in the middle, #94 > **[List of countries by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)** > > The list of countries by UNODC homicide rate is typically expressed in units of deaths per 100,000 individuals per year. A homicide rate of 30 (out of 100,000) corresponds to 0.03% of the population dying by homicide. The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Only UNODC-vetted data is used in the main table below. In some cases, it may not be as up to date as other sources. See further down as to why its data is used over other sources. > Homicide rates may be under-report... Mexico has a rate four times higher. Russia is higher also. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/35 "2017-11-07T03:47:23Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > These tragedies happen every few months in the USA… Try daily. That’s the rough frequency using the more common definition of mass shooting. > [@Velocity](#): > > this is an obvious I-know-what-answer-I-want-to-hear question. No, the answer is obvious so you don’t want anyone to ask the question. This is why the situation in the US won’t improve; you’re not allowed to ask the question let alone have the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/36 "2017-11-07T09:01:23Z")
Nor is research allowed into the issue, if federal money is involved. For instance, Congress has severely limited the ability of the Centres for Disease Control to conduct research into gun violence from an epidemiological perspective: “Why the CDC Hasn’t Launched A Detailed Gun Study in Fifteen Years”. > **[How the NRA resurrected the Second Amendment](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/12/16418524/nra-second-amendment-guns-violence)** > > Here’s the story of how America’s gun politics got so broken. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/37 "2017-11-07T09:27:05Z")
1. We do not assume that our (non-written) constitution is so faulty that it is capable of producing a dictatorial/oppressive government, while at the same assuming that part of it is beyond all fallibility and reproach. 2. We trust, on the whole, our local police forces to use their common sense in applying such[legal principles and guidelines for implementation as govern the availability and keeping of weapons](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/firearms-licensing-police-guidance), which most of us have no desire for and see no need for, and those who do usually have no problem abiding by those principles and guidelines and their local police’s application of them. 3. More generally, we tend to limit our legislators’ ability to use statute law to micro-manage public servants in the exercise of their professional judgement, by the inherited culture and structures of the relationship between politicians and civil service as well as parliamentary procedure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/38 "2017-11-07T09:52:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The US, I would posit, is an outlier because of our history with slavery and racism. You will note, for example, that South Africa is quite homicide-prone despite very low ownership of guns. Err, that would be “low _official_ ownership” - in reality, the country is flooded with arms - some caches left over from the liberation struggle, as well as from conflicts in neighbouring countries. Also, any ownership/homicide correlation for South Africa is going to have to take the gun rental practices into account. As in, as a criminal, [I can](https://businesstech.co.za/news/general/151609/sa-criminals-are-hiring-ak47s-because-its-too-expensive-to-buy-them-this-is-how-much-they-pay/) [rent](https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/gangs-hire-ak-47s-for-robbery-spree-7451653) [an AK](https://mg.co.za/article/2006-09-29-we-almost-hire-an-ak47) at cheap day rates.That behaviour doesn’t fit so neatly on that two-axis graph, now does it? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/39 "2017-11-07T09:53:01Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Another factor is, simply, society’s attitude to guns. It seems to me, from postings here on the SDMB and from comments in the US media, that the US population has a much different attitude towards gun ownership than is the case in other countries. That’s my impression, as a neighbour looking over the fence and listening to your conversations. I can certainly agree with the “different attitude” argument. I’m in Canada. I own guns. I do not own them for defensive purposes–I would never draw down on a home intruder; that’s not what my guns are for. I’d get my baseball bat first, or a table lamp; while I call 911. My guns simply do not enter into the problem; they are not defensive weapons. So what are they? Sporting goods. I don’t hunt live game. but I do like competitive target shooting. And that’s what my guns are used for. I have never selected and bought a gun based on “how much it will waste a guy”; I have rather selected and bought a gun based on, “can I use this to put five shots through a dime at fifty meters?” It’s a different attitude. To me, a Canadian, guns are not for self-defense. They are for sporting use. To an American, as I understand things based on various fora, guns are only for personal defense. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/40 "2017-11-07T10:15:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “gun homicide”- why do machete or bomb murders not count? > > Anyway the uSA is smack dab in the middle, #94 > > [List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) > > Mexico has a rate four times higher. Russia is higher also. You say the USA is at #94 on that list but as it stands that list is just in area order. I suggest that everyone go to your supplied link, sort the countries by homicide rate and then begin reading down. When you do that the USA is at #126. That means that 58% of all countries on earth have lower rates of homicide. The USA is not smack dab in the middle of\* all\* countries, and certainly not the countries that the USA should be measuring itself against. And as you go down the list note the familiar names that crop up early on. Sizable western-style liberal democracies are notable in the top 40 including those listed below > [@](#): > > Japan, Austria, Norway, Netherlands, Ireland, Switzerland, Spain, China, South Korea, Poland, Spain, Czech Republic, Italy, Germany, Croatia, Slovakia, Greece, New Zealand, UK, Portugal, Australia. (The USA has a homicide rate _4 times_ as high as any of those countries listed above.) You then have to keep going for quite a while to get to the USA, past some rather unsavoury nations I might add. The half dozen nations that sandwich the USA on that table are the Marshall Islands, Cuba, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Somalia, Kenya The half dozen nations that sandwich the UK are, Slovakia, Iceland, New Zealand, Tonga, Malta, Portugal. Whichever way you slice it the USA has a high rate of homicide when compared to most superficially equivalent western nations. Do guns explain all of that discrepancy? I don’t know but I strongly suspect that If I ran an experiment in the UK and gave each member of the public a gun then the intentional homicide rate would shoot up (ha!). I cannot imagine a reasonable scenario in which\* more\* guns equals a _reduction_ in homicides in my country. You may have a lot of societal problems that help make your murder rate so high but it would be surprising to find that having effectively uncontrolled access to guns is not an aggravating factor. If you give people access to tools that make instant death so easy a child could do it, and fail to restrict and control that access, don’t be surprised when even children go ahead and do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900.md?page=3)