# What are other countries doing right to prevent mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900 "2017-11-06T17:46:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/61 "2017-11-07T17:38:38Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Because guns are uniquely designed to enable the shooter to kill and injure large numbers of people in a short time, often from a distance. > He couldn’t have done that with a club, or poison, a knife, a car, a cliff, a baseball bat, etc. > > Bombs and guns are instruments for killing. They get special attention. > > Or should, in a sensible country. Sure, guns are more dangerous than knives- but not as dangerous as bombs. But stil- once you’re dead- it doesnt matter whether is was a knife, a gun or a bomb. Murder is murder. If somehow you reduced “gun homicides” to zero but the overall homicide rate increased, there would be no gain. And guns do get special attention as extra prison time is tacked on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/62 "2017-11-07T17:40:44Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Nor is research allowed into the issue, if federal money is involved. > > For instance, Congress has severely limited the ability of the Centres for Disease Control to conduct research into gun violence from an epidemiological perspective: “Why the CDC Hasn’t Launched A Detailed Gun Study in Fifteen Years”. > > [How the NRA resurrected the Second Amendment - Vox](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/12/16418524/us-gun-policy-nra) This is not true. The CDC can study all they want, as long as the \*purpose \*isnt to \*advocate for gun control. \* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/63 "2017-11-07T17:41:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You say the USA is at #94 on that list but as it stands that list is just in area order. > I suggest that everyone go to your supplied link, sort the countries by homicide rate and then begin reading down. When you do that the USA is at #126. That means that 58% of all countries on earth have lower rates of homicide. The USA is not smack dab in the middle of\* all\* countries, and certainly not the countries that the USA should be measuring itself against. > > And as you go down the list note the familiar names that crop up early on. Sizable western-style liberal democracies are notable in the top 40 including those listed below > > (The USA has a homicide rate _4 times_ as high as any of those countries listed above.) > > You then have to keep going for quite a while to get to the USA, past some rather unsavoury nations I might add. > > The half dozen nations that sandwich the USA on that table are the Marshall Islands, Cuba, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Somalia, Kenya > > The half dozen nations that sandwich the UK are, Slovakia, Iceland, New Zealand, Tonga, Malta, Portugal. > > Whichever way you slice it the USA has a high rate of homicide when compared to most superficially equivalent western nations… Mexico is a superficially equivalent western nation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/64 "2017-11-07T17:46:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t mind a rancher packing the appropriate firearm to take care of wolves, snakes, etc. But that firearm is not an assault rifle. No mass shootings have been with “assault rifles” since they can fire full auto, mostly banned in the USA. Perhaps you mean that nebulous and undefined (except poorly by legal code) “assault weapon”? Do note that the Runger RANCH Rifle is considered by some to be a “assault weapon”. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/65 "2017-11-07T18:24:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No mass shootings have been with “assault rifles” since they can fire full auto, mostly banned in the USA. Perhaps you mean that nebulous and undefined (except poorly by legal code) “assault weapon”? > > Do note that the Runger RANCH Rifle is considered by some to be a “assault weapon”. Standard anti gun control argument- let’s quibble over definitions! Tell you what- you can have whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t hold more than 6 rounds. Sure, maybe you need to kill a predator or vermin, but you don’t need to kill 50 animals in a minute. So for my purpose, an assault rifle is a weapon designed to shoot over 6 rounds in a very short time. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/66 "2017-11-07T18:30:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Standard anti gun control argument- let’s quibble over definitions! Tell you what- you can have whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t hold more than 6 rounds. Sure, maybe you need to kill a predator or vermin, but you don’t need to kill 50 animals in a minute. So for my purpose, an assault rifle is a weapon designed to shoot over 6 rounds in a very short time. So, ‘assault rifle’ by your definition is essentially every gun except one shot derringers, some shotguns and black powder weapons. Got it. Good luck with getting that passed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/67 "2017-11-07T18:46:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, ‘assault rifle’ by your definition is essentially every gun except one shot derringers, some shotguns and black powder weapons. Got it. Good luck with getting that passed. That would even exclude double-barrel shotguns, as competition skeet shooters, etc can reload those very fast. The Lee-Enfield, a WW **1** bolt action rifle could get off 30 shots in a minute, with practice. A \*muzzle loading musket \*can get off 4 shots in a minute, again in the hands of a skilled expert. A expert bowman can fire 10 arrows in about a minute. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/68 "2017-11-07T18:46:16Z")
As to the OP, other countries have very restrictive access to guns for most citizens…and most of their citizens are perfectly fine with that, not having any sort of tradition of allowing them in the past. I know it’s popular on this site to say Americans are just like everyone else, but really, they aren’t. Our attitudes towards guns (and health care) are just different than every other nation. It’s why there is such a vast disconnect on these issues between Americans and people from other countries, and why both sides are often scratching their heads that the attitude of the other side. Our attitudes on free speech are also different than most other countries. Basically, to answer the OP, I don’t think that what other countries do would really relate one for one to things that could be done in the US. IOW, if we implemented, say, the UK’s gun laws exactly as they are, well, you’d run up against a lot more issues trying to actually enforce them here that you don’t have there…and this leaves aside just doing that in the first place. Attitudes of the average American are just different than the average citizen in the UK, or Europe, or Japan or…well, anywhere. Even Canada, which is closer to us than most other countries has a markedly different attitude on any of this stuff than Americans do. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/69 "2017-11-07T18:56:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That would even exclude double-barrel shotguns, as competition skeet shooters, etc can reload those very fast. > > The Lee-Enfield, a WW **1** bolt action rifle could get off 30 shots in a minute, with practice. > > A \*muzzle loading musket \*can get off 4 shots in a minute, again in the hands of a skilled expert. > > A expert bowman can fire 10 arrows in about a minute. We can set the exact specifications later, but I think some limitation of x number of rounds per minute is valid. We just need a realistic value for x that could minimize Las Vegas type rampages. Should it be 6 or 10 or 15? I don’t know. I just now 100 and above is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/70 "2017-11-07T19:16:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We can set the exact specifications later, but I think some limitation of x number of rounds per minute is valid. We just need a realistic value for x that could minimize Las Vegas type rampages. Should it be 6 or 10 or 15? I don’t know. I just now 100 and above is ridiculous. I suspect most standard-issue police sidearms are capable of firing 50+ rounds per minute. The police aren’t carrying them because they suspect they’ll have to mow down crowds of people but because they are suitable for self defense. Can you accept that private citizens might also want to own firearms similarly-suitable for self defense? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/71 "2017-11-07T19:30:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We can set the exact specifications later, but I think some limitation of x number of rounds per minute is valid. We just need a realistic value for x that could minimize Las Vegas type rampages. Should it be 6 or 10 or 15? I don’t know. I just now 100 and above is ridiculous. For hunting and in some states (CA), any magazine over ten rounds can’t be used, or bought. I dont see any reason not to ban sale of magazines over 10 rounds. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/72 "2017-11-07T19:36:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont see any reason not to ban sale of magazines over 10 rounds. I see reasons not to ban them. Where do we go from here? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/73 "2017-11-07T19:51:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We can set the exact specifications later, but I think some limitation of x number of rounds per minute is valid. We just need a realistic value for x that could minimize Las Vegas type rampages. Should it be 6 or 10 or 15? I don’t know. I just now 100 and above is ridiculous. I’m sure this is part of your plan, but just to be clear, if you limited a firearm to, say, 15 rounds a minute you’d be taking something like 95% of all guns in the US out of the picture. That would include all revolvers, all shotguns (you could fire even a single shot shotgun at 15 rounds a minute or better), all rifles that use a cartridge…basically everything except muzzle loading black powder guns. Hell, even trap door Civil War rifles can be fired quicker than that. While I’m sure you’d love to do that, it doesn’t seem reasonable except as a mental masturbation exercise, since it’s literally not going to happen. Now, if what you meant was magazine sized limited to 6, 10 or 15 that’s another matter. I honestly don’t think it would make that much difference and would really be a ban to annoy people without practical effect, but it would actually be possible, as opposed to what you seem to be proposing. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/74 "2017-11-07T19:58:05Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What was the UK like before gun control was passed? People killing each other over whether the milk goes in first or second? No, the murder rate back then in 1920 was about one eight the murder rate in the US and the murder rate now is one fifth the US rate. > In the UK there were 213 murders by stabbing, in the US there were 1,567. Was that caused by the number of knives in the US? There were 7 poisonings in the UK in the US there were 69. Is that because of more poisons in the US? There were 33 people in the UK beaten to death without a weapon, 660 in the US. Do people in the US have harder fists and feet? Five people burned to death in the UK, 71 in the US. Are there more matches in the US? 24 people strangled or asphyxiated and 185 in the US. Are there more garrotes in the US? > > The US is a much more violent and homicidal country than the UK and has been for recorded history. Well, I’m going to mention mental health support again. You don’t feel great about life, you visit your GP, you get referred (it’s problematic atm because of austerity but its still there. The prospect of support remains). At no point is ‘buying a gun’ part of the process, or even an option. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/75 "2017-11-07T20:00:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Mexico is a superficially equivalent western nation. Is this scarcasm? Fwiw, there’s no wall proposed to the north. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/76 "2017-11-07T21:03:03Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > In the UK there were 213 murders by stabbing, in the US there were 1,567. Was that caused by the number of knives in the US? There were 7 poisonings in the UK in the US there were 69. Is that because of more poisons in the US? There were 33 people in the UK beaten to death without a weapon, 660 in the US. Do people in the US have harder fists and feet? Five people burned to death in the UK, 71 in the US. Are there more matches in the US? 24 people strangled or asphyxiated and 185 in the US. Are there more garrotes in the US? > > The US is a much more violent and homicidal country than the UK and has been for recorded history. The ratio of UK population to US is roughly 1:5.5, how do these stats stack up in light of that? > [@](#): > > Stabbing 1:7 > poisoning 1:10 > beating 1:20 > burning 1:14 (_burning?_) > strangulation 1:8 So on 3 of these there is not much difference in the rate of occurrence once we allow for the size of the population. For beating it seems to be 3 times higher, for burning (again…_burning?_) 2.5 times higher. So we should expect the murder rate by firearm to be somewhere in that ballpark yes? I mean the USA may seem slightly more violent judging by those figures but not massively so. No, as it happens in the UK we have about 50 murders by firearms, in the USA you have about 8000. That is a ratio of 1:160, 8 times worse than even the beating figures. Either there is something special about firearms or you are a much more violent society but only when it comes to killing people in a certain way. Curious, is it not? that all the methods of murder to which the citizens of each country have equal access provide a murder rate within an order of magnitude. The only real outlier is the method which you have access to in spades and we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/77 "2017-11-07T21:04:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Because guns are uniquely designed to enable the shooter to kill and injure large numbers of people in a short time, often from a distance. > > In about twenty minutes, the Las Vegas shooter killed 58 people and injured 500 more, from a distance where none of his victims could see him or try to stop him. > > He couldn’t have done that with a club, or poison, a knife, a car, a cliff, a baseball bat, etc. > > You’re right, the victims are just as dead. That’s not the point. The point is that guns enable a person to kill and injure a large number of people in a very short time, unlike all the other things you mention, except for a bomb. > > Bombs and guns are instruments for killing. They get special attention. > > Or should, in a sensible country. So what you’re saying is that terrorists and crazy mass murderers only exist in the United States, right? No one’s has ever murdered a bunch of people in the UK, France, Norway, India, Pakistan, Germany, Belgium…? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/78 "2017-11-07T21:07:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What was the UK like before gun control was passed? People killing each other over whether the milk goes in first or second? No, the murder rate back then in 1920 was about one eight the murder rate in the US and the murder rate now is one fifth the US rate. Guns have never really been commonplace in the UK, and never really commonly used for personal self defence, so ‘before gun control’ was not so very different from now. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/79 "2017-11-07T21:11:44Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, as it happens in the UK we have about 50 murders by firearms, in the USA you have about 8000. That is a ratio of 1:160, 8 times worse than even the beating figures. Either there is something special about firearms or you are a much more violent society but only when it comes to killing people in a certain way. The homicide rate of Switzerland is lower than the UK, while the gun ownership rate is 3.7 times larger. The homicide rate of Findland is lower than the UK, while the gun ownership rate is 5.2 times larger. Is it more likely that the US has a higher homicide rate than the UK because of gun ownership rates, or because of discrimination and income inequality? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900/80 "2017-11-07T21:16:55Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So what you’re saying is that terrorists and crazy mass murderers only exist in the United States, right? No one’s has ever murdered a bunch of people in the UK, France, Norway, India, Pakistan, Germany, Belgium…? I think we’re still talking about guns. Fwiw, I remember three attacks from this summer; a home made bomb in Manchester (ISIS trained), a car on Westminster Bridge and a car/stabbing frenzy at Borough Market. No guns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-other-countries-doing-right-to-prevent-mass-shootings/800900.md?page=5)