# What are "Saved Christians" saved from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120 "2009-02-09T19:24:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dervorin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Dervorin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervorin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/41 "2009-02-10T14:23:32Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The Catholic Church has pretty much backed off the idea of Limbo. It was never official Church teaching anyway (as the Wikipedia entry makes clear). > > The Church says that the unbaptized can indeed be saved. The “invincibly ignorant” (i.e., those who haven’t heard of Christ or the Church, or those who cannot, for whatever reason, be receptive to the idea of Christianity) can be saved. Yes, baptism is necessary for salvation, but there is such a thing as “baptism of desire,” which pretty much covers the virtuous non-Christians. Wouldn’t the best way of saving humanity in that case be to never, ever tell anyone about Christ or the Church? Clearly out of X number of people told, some small percentage will not be saved, but if they’d never been told about it, all of them would have been given a Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven. So the Church is actually ensuring that people go to hell by spreading the Word, which seems a little inconsistent to me. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/42 "2009-02-10T14:54:18Z")
> [@Dervorin](#): > > Wouldn’t the best way of saving humanity in that case be to never, ever tell anyone about Christ or the Church? Clearly out of X number of people told, some small percentage will not be saved, but if they’d never been told about it, all of them would have been given a Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven. So the Church is actually ensuring that people go to hell by spreading the Word, which seems a little inconsistent to me. Where did you read in anything I or anyone else posted that “if they’d never been told about it, all of them would have been given a Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven”? Ignorance of Christ is not exactly a free pass to heaven as far as the Church is concerned. Believe or don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches. It’s of no concern to me whether you believe or not. But Catholic theology is anything but inconsistent. If one accepts the basic premises (and that’s where we get into questions of faith, not fact), the rest follows fairly logically. ---
**Author:** ![Dervorin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Dervorin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervorin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/43 "2009-02-10T15:38:48Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Where did you read in anything I or anyone else posted that “if they’d never been told about it, all of them would have been given a Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven”? Ignorance of Christ is not exactly a free pass to heaven as far as the Church is concerned. > > Believe or don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches. It’s of no concern to me whether you believe or not. But Catholic theology is anything but inconsistent. If one accepts the basic premises (and that’s where we get into questions of faith, not fact), the rest follows fairly logically. I’m using your quotation about the “invincibly ignorant” being saved - either all of them are saved, which seems to be to be the only consistent position, and my argument stands, or else there’s a further selection process among those considered “invincibly ignorant”, and therefore they can’t all be classed together, which then means casting them all into hell is inconsistent. I’m not making any bones about the fact that I don’t believe what the Church teaches; and I apologise if my slightly tongue-in-cheek comment about the Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven was offensive to you. I do, however, see a contradiction in the fate that is foretold for those who never come into contact with Christianity at all. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/44 "2009-02-10T16:19:41Z")
> [@Dervorin](#): > > I’m using your quotation about the “invincibly ignorant” being saved - either all of them are saved, which seems to be to be the only consistent position, and my argument stands, or else there’s a further selection process among those considered “invincibly ignorant”, and therefore they can’t all be classed together, which then means casting them all into hell is inconsistent. > > I’m not making any bones about the fact that I don’t believe what the Church teaches; and I apologise if my slightly tongue-in-cheek comment about the Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven was offensive to you. I do, however, see a contradiction in the fate that is foretold for those who never come into contact with Christianity at all. The “invincibly ignorant” are saved, or not saved, depending on how they live their lives, just as Catholics, and Christians in general, are saved or not saved. Salvation is not “foretold” for those who never come into contact with Christianity, but it is possible. What I said was that the invincibly ignorant \*\*\*can \*\*\*be saved, not that they \*\*\*are \*\*\*saved. As to the “Miraculous Magical Ticket,” no, I wasn’t offended. Yes, I’m a Catholic. I don’t prosyletize, I’m not especially concerned with whether anyone else is a Catholic, or a Christian of any stripe, and I realize that atheism is a perfectly defensible position. ---
**Author:** ![Dervorin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Dervorin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervorin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/45 "2009-02-10T16:32:46Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The “invincibly ignorant” are saved, or not saved, depending on how they live their lives, just as Catholics, and Christians in general, are saved or not saved. Salvation is not “foretold” for those who never come into contact with Christianity, but it is possible. What I said was that the invincibly ignorant \*\*\*can \*\*\*be saved, not that they \*\*\*are \*\*\*saved. > > As to the “Miraculous Magical Ticket,” no, I wasn’t offended. Yes, I’m a Catholic. I don’t prosyletize, I’m not especially concerned with whether anyone else is a Catholic, or a Christian of any stripe, and I realize that atheism is a perfectly defensible position. Ah, I see. Apologies; I misunderstood your original post in this thread. We’ve been talking at cross purposes here, because of my misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/46 "2009-02-10T17:45:49Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > Now, that sure don’t make no kinda sense. Are you saying GOD went to hell? Well, just temporarily, to rescue some worthy folks. He does have dominion over everywhere and can choose to visit Hell if He wants. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/47 "2009-02-10T19:18:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Saved as in ransomed, We are taken back by God, by the exchange of the death of His Son. > > All have sinned, which is submission to a lesser god, that lesser god now owns us. Those gods now stand condemned which means everything they own is also condemned, including the people this lesser god owns. By Jesus dieing in our place that god no longer has any claim on us. Doesn’t submission in your definition require an understanding of what is being done, and something that cannot be done by others in your name? That is to say, a person can only truly submit when they understand what they are submitting to and elect to do so of their own will? I seem to recall asking you about submission in the context of Mary’s pregnancy a short while ago. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/48 "2009-02-10T19:44:35Z")
“Saved FROM?” Who said anything about “from”? It’s “Saved FOR.” [For dessert.](http://www.boom-studios.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/C/t/CthulhuTales_005-A_1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/49 "2009-02-10T20:06:54Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Doesn’t the RCC reject that “faith alone” is the way to salvation? I seem to remember there was a bit of a scuffle on this point, although of course that was 500 years ago, so things may have changed. > > Some Protestant denominations believe even that faith cannot save you – some are chosen by God for reasons of his own, some are not. > > –Cliffy Cliffy, I do not intend to offend anyone and their beliefs, but the RCC is a very legalistic denomination. I was raised RC and am now Reformed. The school of thought here as I see it, there is nothing we can do to repay a gift. If we were to repay a gift and that is what GRACE is then the gift wouldn’t be a gift. Aaey! I would like to recommend a [good book](http://www.graceplusnothing.com/), this book is very good at releasing one from the legalisms that strangle Christians today. The OP states, > [@](#): > > **So** , they’re saved from hellfire from the point they are saved and hence forth regardless of what crap they do cos this lady does so much crap yet claims to be saved. Many do not understand what it means to be a Christian and continue to sin, However no Christian is free of sin and we have to know that we can fall. Our faith can be stolen from us while we are still in the flesh. When that happens we have to REPENT and change our ways. We must live like Jesus. A Christian will radiate Christ to everyone he meets. Please Pray for me and others that we can live up to this Christian way of life. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/50 "2009-02-10T20:23:14Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Well, just temporarily, to rescue some worthy folks. He does have dominion over everywhere and can choose to visit Hell if He wants. Really now… GOD went to hell temporarily.😕 Where do you folks come up with this stuff? I give up. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/51 "2009-02-10T20:27:12Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > You should ask her why she believes that if you’re ignorant of something that means you must be incapable of understanding her explanation if she were to bother giving it. Pretty rude of her to assume you’re an idiot. I did indeed remind myself never to ask her another question. Ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/52 "2009-02-10T20:29:12Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “Saved FROM?” > > Who said anything about “from”? > > It’s “Saved FOR.” > > [For dessert.](http://www.boom-studios.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/C/t/CthulhuTales_005-A_1.jpg) Was that supposed to be funny?:dubious: Well it wasn’t. Thank you all the same.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/53 "2009-02-10T20:30:59Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well it really depends on your denomination’s position. For some, it is actual hellfire in the afterlife. For religions with more “nuanced” theologies it can mean “saved from separation from the presence of God” or from “the Holy Spirit” in this life. It can mean from saved from “sin”. Her statement that she is already saved in this life is correct as far as I understand it. Are you saying that she’s saved up until that moment or she is forever saved because of something she did or said sometime in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/54 "2009-02-10T20:42:54Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > I was chatting with a co-worker who kept telling me how she was saved and if I wasn’t saved, I was sure to go to hell. So, I asked her what saved means, and don’t you know that I never could get an answer… her answer was if you don’t know what saved means then you’ll never know. > > So, I’m asking here… what are “saved folks” saved from? They are saved from the horror of never giving money to a church again, and we all know that is totally unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/55 "2009-02-10T21:06:02Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > She is saved from suffering in Hell for eternity. That was an easy question to answer. Time for a bit of sarcasm here… She is saved from being like “the rest of us”. She is now “officially” better in some weird way. She now has the right to act superior and flaunt it to all the “doomed ones”. Funny thing is, I seem to remember the Bible having some hard words about “the selfrighteous man” somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![wsbenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@wsbenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wsbenge)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/56 "2009-02-10T23:16:58Z")
She is saved from feeling bad about her short comings. She doesn’t have to work so hard, since she has the “Get out of Jail Free” card, so to speak. It is really amazing how many people think they are … finished … with trying. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/57 "2009-02-10T23:40:14Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Cliffy, > I do not intend to offend anyone and their beliefs, but the RCC is a very legalistic denomination. I was raised RC and am now Reformed. > The school of thought here as I see it, there is nothing we can do to repay a gift. If we were to repay a gift and that is what GRACE is then the gift wouldn’t be a gift. Aaey! I think the Catholic Church would grant that we can never “repay” the gifts God has given us, including grace. Rather, it’s only His grace and love that give us the strength to do good works, and in fact impel us to do them. It’s not as a price to pay for our gifts, but the natural result of them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/58 "2009-02-11T00:44:33Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > Was that supposed to be funny?:dubious: Well it wasn’t. Thank you all the same.:mad: You’ve never read Lovecraft, have you? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/59 "2009-02-11T01:10:46Z")
I couldn’t find an image of him in the act of actually eating one. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/60 "2009-02-11T01:59:34Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > Really now… GOD went to hell temporarily.😕 Where do you folks come up with this stuff? I give up. Uh- remember, the Trinity- Trinitarian Christians believe that Jesus is equally God with the Father. And Oneness Christians believe the Father & Son & the Spirit are just different roles that God plays in relationship with us. Hence, Jesus = God. And as for going to Hell, that’s already be explained. Look up “Harrowing of Hell”. Also, I Peter 3:18-20. Some “Word of Faith” Pentecostals have a spin on this in which JC is actually tortured during His time in Hell, endures & prevails to break free in Resurrection, leading the righteous souls into Heaven. The vast majority of Christians, including Pentecostals & many WoFers, think that’s a total near-blasphemous misreading. Btw, the original Q was answered comprehensively the link in Post 2. Then the focus got on “Hell” while ignoring all the rest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120.md?page=4)