# What are "Saved Christians" saved from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120 "2009-02-09T19:24:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/61 "2009-02-11T03:58:21Z")
Themselves. What, you don’t feel comfortable unless you’re up against some schmuck in a Hallowe’en costume? ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/62 "2009-02-11T04:15:15Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > Really now… GOD went to hell temporarily.😕 Where do you folks come up with this stuff? I give up. It’s a pretty well known teaching, and an essential article of the Catholic faith. And it was Jesus, specifically, not the Father. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The Catholic Church has pretty much backed off the idea of Limbo. It was never official Church teaching anyway (as the Wikipedia entry makes clear). > > The Church says that the unbaptized can indeed be saved. The “invincibly ignorant” (i.e., those who haven’t heard of Christ or the Church, or those who cannot, for whatever reason, be receptive to the idea of Christianity) can be saved. Yes, baptism is necessary for salvation, but there is such a thing as “baptism of desire,” which pretty much covers the virtuous non-Christians. They still think nonbelievers who _have_ heard of it but think it’s BS are going to go to hell, though, right? Valete, Vox Imperatoris ETA: I didn’t see **FriarTed** ’s post there. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/63 "2009-02-11T04:46:35Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > I did indeed remind myself never to ask her another question. Ever again. I can agree with you not to ask her questions. But please do ask. As a Christian I can not understand her answer? If you can not understaand her answer it means you were not clearly answered, or at this tie have not got a undersstanding of what was said. After all none of us were born a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/64 "2009-02-11T11:22:12Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Doesn’t submission in your definition require an understanding of what is being done, and something that cannot be done by others in your name? That is to say, a person can only truly submit when they understand what they are submitting to and elect to do so of their own will? I seem to recall asking you about submission in the context of Mary’s pregnancy a short while ago. Apparently full knowledge is not required. The serpent did not give Eve full disclosure, but did not lie to Eve (but told a partial truth to deceive). ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/65 "2009-02-11T14:18:06Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > That’s what my upbringing tells me. > > Well, specifically, the message of salvation I was raised to believe boils down to John 3:16 (sorry, it really is the most succinct version): God loves us, so he sent his son to serve as an atonement sacrifice for all human sin so that no one would have to suffer his judgment and live in eternal damnation. > > This presupposes several facts, perhaps most obscurely that all of us have eternal souls which cannot die, so the important thing is what becomes of them after this life. > > Answering the question of why it’s God’s job to _save us_ from _his own judgment_ (rather than just skipping the whole judgment thing), well, that gets us into **GD**. What if John 3:16 doesn’t say what you posted. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” – John 3:16 (KJV) It says nothing about Jesus being sacrified for the sins of man. It says those who believe in him, or in other words, those who believe in what He says, His teachings, then they will have have everlasting life. They, by heeded His teachings will know they are eternal. People have to do a lot of creative assuming to believe it means something else, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/66 "2009-02-11T16:02:37Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > They still think nonbelievers who _have_ heard of it [Christianity] but think it’s BS are going to go to hell, though, right? Not necessarily. I’m sure you can find some very conservative or capital-T Traditionalists who believe this, but generally it’s not Church teaching. “Invincible ignorance” covers a lot of ground. Someone may have been so conditioned by his or her upbringing and culture that acceptance of the truth of the Catholic faith may be impossible. Not necessarily that person’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/67 "2009-02-11T23:38:45Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Well, just temporarily, to rescue some worthy folks. He does have dominion over everywhere and can choose to visit Hell if He wants. Does he bring a gift? Perhaps some dough for wafers that would instantly bake upon his entrance? “Hi, devil, I need to bake. Please enjoy this Merlot.” 😉 Seriously, for the OP, I have always gotten the impression that those who claim to be saved consider themselves one rung up the heaven ladder than those who were only baptized as an infant and now mumble their way through “Hallelujiah” every Sunday. Consider those who only took one drivers exam, aka most humans. The saved ones are the geeks that volunteered to take it over on purpose. “Yes, I really don’t have faith in turn signals anymore. May I read the manual again?” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/68 "2009-02-12T00:42:50Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It says nothing about Jesus being sacrified for the sins of man. It says those who believe in him, or in other words, those who believe in what He says, His teachings, then they will have have everlasting life. They, by heeded His teachings will know they are eternal. > > People have to do a lot of creative assuming to believe it means something else, I think. I think to say “or in other words” is a wee bit of creative assuming on your part, too, there. It simply says believes in - it does not qualify the nature of that belief. To assume that it specifically means what he says and teaches is about as much of a leap than it is to assume “gave” refers to the later sacrifice, in my book. Really, when taking someone to task for assuming beyond the text, the words “or in other words” really shouldn’t come into play at all if you don’t want to seem hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/69 "2009-02-12T02:40:31Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > That’s what my upbringing tells me. > > Well, specifically, the message of salvation I was raised to believe boils down to John 3:16 (sorry, it really is the most succinct version): God loves us, so he sent his son to serve as an atonement sacrifice for all human sin so that no one would have to suffer his judgment and live in eternal damnation. > > This presupposes several facts, perhaps most obscurely that all of us have eternal souls which cannot die, so the important thing is what becomes of them after this life. > > Answering the question of why it’s God’s job to _save us_ from _his own judgment_ (rather than just skipping the whole judgment thing), well, that gets us into **GD**. The bible does not indicate an eternal soul ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/70 "2009-02-12T02:44:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Saved as in ransomed, We are taken back by God, by the exchange of the death of His Son. > > All have sinned, which is submission to a lesser god, that lesser god now owns us. Those gods now stand condemned which means everything they own is also condemned, including the people this lesser god owns. By Jesus dieing in our place that god no longer has any claim on us. There is no biblical basis for this reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/71 "2009-02-12T02:59:59Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What if John 3:16 doesn’t say what you posted. > > “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” > – John 3:16 (KJV) > > It says nothing about Jesus being sacrified for the sins of man. It says those who believe in him, or in other words, those who believe in what He says, His teachings, then they will have have everlasting life. They, by heeded His teachings will know they are eternal. > > People have to do a lot of creative assuming to believe it means something else, I think. The problem in your reasoning is that the argument for Christ’s life as a sacrifice can be found **directly** in more than one place in the NT. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/72 "2009-02-12T03:21:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Apparently full knowledge is not required. The serpent did not give Eve full disclosure, but did not lie to Eve (but told a partial truth to deceive). This is not true. He directly lied to Eve. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/73 "2009-02-12T03:24:59Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > Interesting… Thanks. Now I see why she’s a jackass. She believes she’s already in heaven. Thanks again. Okay, here’s where my new, hippie theology separates from my old, RC theology. Or my inherent Upper Midwest sensibility coincides with RC theology. Or they all diverge from fundamentalist Christianity: I cannot STAND the fundamentalist assumption that they are going to Heaven. #1 My hippie interpretation of Evangelical Lutheranism: All God’s chilluns is goin’ to Heaven because, by dying for our sins, JC bore the brunt and we’re human and, therefore, imperfect, blahblahblah. #2 What I got from the nuns when I was a kid: It is totally wrong to assume ANYBODY is going to Heaven, at least right away, because we ALL need to be purged (thus Purgatory) of the many sins our imperfect selves committed (remember: they can be sins of both commission OR omission). #3 As an Upper Midwesterner: It is presumptuous to believe I, or anybody, am going to Heaven and tacky to brag about it. I may secretly suspect my neighbors might not, but I can NEVER admit the obvious, I am and they ain’t, in public. However, “in private” can be flexible. Normally, the nuns have it for me, but if the song is catchy enough, I’ll sing along. ETA: That may not have been entirely coherent. I am still stunned that **kanicbird** believes in multiple gods. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/74 "2009-02-12T03:42:06Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > Interesting… Thanks. Now I see why she’s a jackass. She believes she’s already in heaven. Thanks again. No, she doesn’t. Most sects of Christianity do not teach that there can be “heaven on earth”, although some Buddhists do. She believes (probably) that she is “elected” (the proper term—picked out) to be in Heaven by God. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/75 "2009-02-12T03:55:16Z")
A couple of interesting and seldom mentioned passages. > [@](#): > > 1 Peter 3: 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, > [@](#): > > 2 Cor :2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. the apostles found some mushrooms on the way to Corinth. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120/76 "2009-02-13T12:52:43Z")
> [@Clu-Me-In](#): > > Now, that sure don’t make no kinda sense. Are you saying GOD went to hell? In one of the Psalms it is quoted: Even if I go into Hell you are there. According to the Nicene Creed it says Jesus went into hell he decended before he resurrected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-saved-christians-saved-from/485120.md?page=3)