# What are some "Anti-Alamos"? (Explained in OP) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 4, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401 "2013-10-04T23:05:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/1 "2013-10-04T23:05:18Z")
I was watching _Saving Private Ryan_ for the umpteenth time recently, and during the scene where the men are preparing for battle in the ruined French village they refer to one particular position as “The Alamo”, meaning that if they are completely overrun then that is where they are to rally and make their last stand. I was trying to think if there is a more hopeful codename than Alamo: some place where people who were seemingly defeated rallied for what could well have been, perhaps should by all logic have been, a last stand, but in fact they survived, perhaps even won the battle. I can think of lots of last stand places of course (Angelsey, Little Big Horn, Thermopylae, etc.), but the nearest I can think of for an “anti-Alamo” would be Agincourt, a battle that the English should have lost when you look at the numbers and disadvantages, but which was one of their most famous victories. However, it doesn’t quite have the desperation or ‘final stand’ feel of The Alamo. Can anybody think of any better examples? Again, I’m looking for a rallying point for outnumbered soldiers who ultimately at very least survived the battle. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/2 "2013-10-04T23:09:16Z")
[Long Tan](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gUSq7pxux4) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/3 "2013-10-04T23:47:28Z")
[Rorke’s Drift,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke's_Drift) where about 150 British and colonial troops successfully held off several thousand Zulu warriors in 1879. It immediately followed the [Battle of Isandlwana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana) in which the Zulus had nearly wiped out another British force of about 2,000. It’s memorably depicted in the film _Zulu_. Another example is the [Siege of the International Legations in Peking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_International_Legations) during the Boxer Rebellion in 1900, depicted in the film _55 Days at Peking._ On a smaller scale was the [Wagon Box Fight](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_Box_Fight)in 1867 in which about 30 US Calvary and civilians held off several hundred Sioux warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/4 "2013-10-04T23:56:11Z")
nm… was going to suggest Masada, but that’s a completely different outcome. ---
**Author:** ![trupa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@trupa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trupa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/5 "2013-10-05T00:02:38Z")
Their Battle of the Bulge, or their Bastogne ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/6 "2013-10-05T00:24:15Z")
[La Noche Triste](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Noche_Triste) also deserves mention. During the Conquest of Mexico in 1520, Cortes and his men were surrounded by the Aztecs and besieged in Tenochtitlan after the death of Moctezuma. One night they managed to fight their way out of the city, although with great losses. They later regrouped and returned to conquer the city. ---
**Author:** ![Recusant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@Recusant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recusant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/7 "2013-10-05T00:33:25Z")
If you’re willing to use naval battles, I’d put in Myeongnyang. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/8 "2013-10-05T00:37:17Z")
If Sci-Fi counts, there’s The Battle of the Line (B5), and Wolf 359 (ST:TNG) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/9 "2013-10-05T00:50:33Z")
[Little Round Top](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Round_Top) maybe ? [Pavlov’s House](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlov%27s_house) certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/10 "2013-10-05T00:51:26Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If Sci-Fi counts, there’s The Battle of the Line (B5), and Wolf 359 (ST:TNG) The Battle of the Line was only a victory because the Minbari stopped fighting and surrendered when they questioned whatshisface and found out he had a Minbari soul. And Wolf 359 was a complete loss by the Federation, they didn’t even slow the Borg down there. I was going to go with Rorke’s Drift also. An utterly amazing battle. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/11 "2013-10-05T01:12:32Z")
Oh, how could I forget ? There’s also [Camerone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camerone), which is pretty much the perfect Anti-Alamo. Same sort of premise : 65 French defenders, 2000 Mexican attackers, one hacienda, winner takes all. After 17 hours of fighting, the last 5 defenders still on their feet mounted a bayonet charge (they had run out of ammo). The last \*two \*legionnaries were eventually forced to surrender, but only on the condition that the 19 survivors be granted safe passage back to the French lines, with their weapons and the body of their commander. Not only did the Mexican general grant their wish, he also had his doctors patch them all up for good measure. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/12 "2013-10-05T01:12:36Z")
If you’re just going for a code name that most people would recognize, you could use Helm’s Deep. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/13 "2013-10-05T01:13:23Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > The Battle of the Line was only a victory because the Minbari stopped fighting and surrendered when they questioned whatshisface and found out he had a Minbari soul. And Wolf 359 was a complete loss by the Federation, they didn’t even slow the Borg down there. But in both cases, the humans survived against desperate odds. And at Wolf 359 they bought enough time for others to win the day. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/14 "2013-10-05T01:17:56Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > If you’re just going for a code name that most people would recognize, you could use Helm’s Deep. I highly doubt “most people” would recognize Helm’s Deep. Tolkien may be the Nerd Bible, but the vast majority of the population are not nerds. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/15 "2013-10-05T01:23:06Z")
I had to Google Helm’s Deep. :rolleyes: I would say Rork’s Drift is the best example of what you’re looking for, though I don’t think many Americans know the proper name of the place. They would know the movie Zulu, though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/16 "2013-10-05T03:55:48Z")
What you’re basically looking for are sieges where the defenders held out. Famous examples would be Sparta (272 BC), Vienna (1529), Leiden (1573-1574), Gibraltar (1779-1783), Saragossa (1808), Leningrad (1941-1944), and Khe Sanh (1968). ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/17 "2013-10-05T04:08:29Z")
I don’t mind being ninjaed by **Little Nemo** but Leningrad is what first came to my mind. Is that the correct spelling for that contrived word? ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/18 "2013-10-05T05:16:54Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > But in both cases, the humans survived against desperate odds. And at Wolf 359 they bought enough time for others to win the day. Yes, but they didn’t win. Holding out against the odds and losing is the very definition of an Alamo situation, the OP is looking for cases where the out-numbered defenders actually won the battle. Yes you can make a case for the Battle of the Line, but it is only on a technicality. Humans only actually defeated Minbari the one time and it wasn’t the Battle of the Line. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/19 "2013-10-05T06:18:44Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > Yes, but they didn’t win. Holding out against the odds and losing is the very definition of an Alamo situation, the OP is looking for cases where the out-numbered defenders actually won the battle. Yes you can make a case for the Battle of the Line, but it is only on a technicality. Humans only actually defeated Minbari the one time and it wasn’t the Battle of the Line. > [@Sampiro](#): > > I was trying to think if there is a more hopeful codename than Alamo: some place where people who were seemingly defeated rallied for what could well have been, perhaps should by all logic have been, a last stand, \*\*but in fact they survived, perhaps even won the battle. \*\* (Emphasis added by me) Survival is the specified condition in the OP. Winning is a bonus. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401/20 "2013-10-05T14:37:36Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > (Emphasis added by me) > > Survival is the specified condition in the OP. Winning is a bonus. So the Battle of the Line qualifies. Wolf 359 might, if you consider 1 heavily damaged ship out of 40 surviving, with no damage to the Borg for the losses, as a hopeful outcome. The Federation didn’t, they considered it a disaster and used it as a level of comparison for other battles in the future, to determine how big a disaster the loser suffered. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-anti-alamos-explained-in-op/670401.md?page=2)