# What are some concrete examples of europeans being radically more liberal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441 "2005-06-29T23:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/21 "2005-06-30T14:21:16Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > However, differences between individual states do apply. I’d suggest California is more liberal than some European states. There are states in Europe where the death-penalty still exists, even if its almost never used. I guess you’ll have to look for extremes. > > \ > > But never forget that the differences between countries in Europe are at least as big as differences between states in the U.S., something which Europeans also often forget. The Netherlands is like the California of Europe, maybe more extremely so in some respects. For instance, we have: > > - legalised euthanasia > - legalised prostitution > - legalised gay marriage > - semi-legalised drugs > - legalised medicinal use of marijuana > - the highest fuel prices of Europe (yay!) > - no death-penalty > - social security for all San Francisco (and surrounding areas) maybe, but not CA as a whole. None of those things listed apply to CA (unless they apply federally) with the exception of medicinal marijuana, but that’s “legal” in quite a few states (“legal” according to state law, but recently those laws have been voided by the SCOTUS). It’s hard to pin down the most liberal state in the US. It could be New York, MA, or maybe even Minnesota (all that Scandinavian infulence, \*ja \*🙂 ). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/22 "2005-06-30T14:39:36Z")
A note about California. (‘Ex-pat’ California Native here.) Los Angeles is fairly Liberal. San Francisco seems to be moreso. But drive up the Central Valley and you’ll see ‘U.S. Out Of UN’ signs in many fields, as well as signs that appear to have been erected by conservative Christians. Judging solely by driving through those areas many times, I’d say that that part of CA is not Liberal. SoCal also has Orange County. It became known as ‘Reagan Country’ because of the large number of Republicans there. We always called it ‘Behind the Orange Curtain’. As far as taxes go, mine (combined state, federal, SSI, etc.) were about 33%. I would consider this a fair amount, if only they would go to social programmes instead of military ones. I do support some military projecte – not only maintenance of the status quo, but also R&D and better pay for our military personnel. But as far as the $200 billion we’ve spent in Iraq, I’d rather my tax dollars had gone to National Health Care and education. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/23 "2005-06-30T14:44:47Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.SoCal also has Orange County. It became known as ‘Reagan Country’ because of the large number of Republicans there. We always called it ‘Behind the Orange Curtain’.[/QUOTE] As you probably know, there really isn’t an “Orange County” in the SF Bay Area, and that’s probably the main part of the difference. But I’d guess that SF is considerably more liberal than LA (just comparing city to city), as well. We won’t even talk about Bezerkeley… ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/24 "2005-06-30T14:48:36Z")
This website, posted in the crappy fathers thread, is another good example of some fundamental differences between the U.S. and Europe in terms of policy, in this case, family planning and welfare: [http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib\_1-02.html](http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_1-02.html) ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/25 "2005-06-30T15:07:16Z")
[Cecil on the height of taxes in the USA and the rest of the world.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001201.html) > [@](#): > > U.S. taxes are low compared to other developed nations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/26 "2005-06-30T16:39:22Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > [Cecil on the height of taxes in the USA and the rest of the world.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001201.html) That cite is a bit confusing because the claim is made in the tables that state and local taxes are included, yet he says, almost right below the last table (my emphasis): > [@](#): > > That’s part of a larger pattern–the U.S. leaves more to the private sector than most other developed countries and, for that matter, many less-developed ones. Government expenditures here account for just 22 percent of gross domestic product (source: World Bank, 1997), the lowest of any of the ten countries listed above for which that information was available (high: Italy, 49 percent; average exclusive of U.S., 40 percent). 22% must be federal expenditures only. CA, for instance has a budget of about $100B. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/27 "2005-06-30T17:34:05Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > Not only am I certain you won’t find any reputable link to say this is not true, but I’d be surprised if you could even find ANY link stating otherwise. This 25% tax rate stuff is just complete nonsense. Just federal taxes alone are higher than 25% for all but the lowest two brackets. The highest tax bracket is 35%. I work in MA and pay another 5%. Payroll taxes are 12.4% for everyone if you include the hidden half that the employer pays. Right there that’s over 50%. I live in NH and pay outragious property taxes. (My building permit just to build my house was $6,700!) If you factor this in as well as tolls, gas taxes, sales taxes and everything else the total taxes is obviously way above 50%. I’ve seen people argue that we aren’t paying 50% of our income in taxes. This is incorrect, but at least it’s reasonable for somebody to (wrongly) believe this. However, saying 25% is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/28 "2005-06-30T17:39:30Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This 25% tax rate stuff is just complete nonsense. Just federal taxes alone are higher than 25% for all but the lowest two brackets. A) what’s the percentage of Americans in those two brackets? B) what is the net tax rate for those in higher brackets after deductions and shelters? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/29 "2005-06-30T18:30:31Z")
And you do understand the concept of marginal tax rates? Right Debaser? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/30 "2005-07-10T09:51:49Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This 25% tax rate stuff is just complete nonsense. Just federal taxes alone are higher than 25% for all but the lowest two brackets. Man you’re getting screwed!! My federal taxes last year were exactly 17.35% of my income. That’s my\* taxable \* income after deductions–not my gross income (my tax was less then 15% of my gross). And I am definitely a ways above the lowest two tax brackets. I live in the USA. What country are you in? Or is your tax preparer ripping you off A LOT? Side note: We here in the USA are woefully under-taxed. Perhaps if (when, really) we raise our tax rates up to the rates enjoyed in more civilized countries, we will all benefit from a healthier, more cultured and far better educated populace. Move over tax whiners-- make room for inevitable progress. It’s going to happen here with you or without you. (I refer to no one particular person when I mention tax whiners") ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/31 "2005-07-10T22:07:38Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s kind of hard to see how “Our definition of a flaming liberal would make a European laugh” doesn’t count as a perfect example of what was mentioned in the OP. Oh. Really. I’m one of those posters that have said repeatedly that the US is very conservative, relative to other countries in the OECD. The lack of universal health care in the US, in stark contrast to essentially every other country with more than half of the US’s GDP per capita, is proof of this alone. Nonetheless, I never said that Margaret Thatcher was more liberal than Jimmy Carter. Her policies were more liberal though, as she never attempted to dismantle the Brit’s health care system. The US spends a higher share of GDP on health care than any other OECD country, largely because of the effort involved in passing health care costs on to somebody else. The US healthcare bureaucracy is Byzantine, but because it is private, it gives modern US conservatives a warm fuzzy feeling. They are not bothered by the US’s low life expectancy relative to Europe, Australia or Japan. Don’t get me wrong. Patriots in the US want a strong and healthy America. But modern conservatives call the shots here, and they feel otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/32 "2005-07-10T22:28:57Z")
In 2002 US Federal Receipts were $1853 billion [http://www.census.gov/statab/www/govtsoclaw.html](http://www.census.gov/statab/www/govtsoclaw.html) In 2002 State Receipts were $1062 billion. (same) In 2002 State **and Local** Receipts were 1424.7 (pdf file, Table 426, [http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/stlocgov.pdf](http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/stlocgov.pdf) ) In 2002 GDP was 10481 Billion. State, Local, and Federal: (1853+1425)/10481 = 31.3 % Federal: 17.7% Fed + State: 27.8% Local: 3.5% Some of this is misleading though: our massive federal deficits imply tax hikes and austerity for our children and grandchildren, given the Republican Congress’ aversion to fiscal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/33 "2005-07-10T22:40:27Z")
I double counted. State and Local Revenue included “Federal Grants in aid” ($304, which is 2.9% of GDP). There may be other examples of double counting (my Table isn’t clear on this point). Anyway 31.3- 2.9= 28.4% of GDP for all levels of government. That’s pretty close to Arwin’s estimate of 26.3. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/34 "2005-07-10T23:17:31Z")
France and Italy are currently head by conservative governments, in a European context. Let’s compare the shares of GDP devoted to foreign aid, and the shares devoted to the military. ```auto For Aid Military France 0.38% 2.6% Italy 0.20% 1.8% (2004) US about 0.13% 3.3% (2003FYest) 3.2% (1998) ``` Source: Economist’s Pocket World in Figures, 2005, [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/it.html#Military](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/it.html#Military) [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html#Military](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html#Military) [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Military](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Military) The US spends less in foreign aid than conservative governments in Europe. The US spends more on the military (including under Clinton) than conservative governments in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/35 "2005-07-10T23:56:30Z")
_ **What policy decisions would be broadly supported by a moderately conservative european but would be broadly rejected by a moderal liberal american?** _ Greece and Romania have a pretty straight forward DRAFT > **[Important Figures in Women's History](https://www.thoughtco.com/womens-history-important-figures-4133258)** > > For most of history, Virginia Woolf suggested, Anonymous was a woman. And for the most part, even those women whose names we know have not gotten their due. Celebrate some of the many women who have shaped our world with these profiles and... Countries where there is limited conscription but where provisions are made to exclude people based on conscientious objections, religious objections, extra-ordinary family obligations, compassionate grounds and/or voluntary enrollment in alternative civilian or non-military service. Austria Belarus Bulgaria Cyprus Czech Republic Denmark Estonia Federal Republic of Germany Finland France Hungary Italy Latvia Lithuania Norway Poland Portugal Slovakia Slovenia Spain Sweden Ukraine Countries that will draft non-combatants (ie: medical service personnel, humanitarian aids, office workers, cooks, etc…), usually on an as needed basis only. Croatia Yugoslavia Bosnia and Herzegovina Russian Federation Switzerland > **[International Woman Suffrage: A Timeline of Winning the Vote for Women](https://www.thoughtco.com/international-woman-suffrage-timeline-3530479)** > > When did various countries around the world extend the right to vote (and hold public office) to women on the same basis as men? Country that even the vaguest discussion of the vaguest hint of a word that rhymes, a little, with “Draft” will cause White House and Pentagon denials and loads of angry finger pointing by the political parties each accusing the other of demagogy and trying to scare folks on the issue: The United States ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/36 "2005-07-11T12:35:01Z")
I’ll throw in some examples wrt Germany’s main right-of-centre party, the [CDU](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Union_of_Germany) - in 1994, a CDU-led federal government/parliamentary majority abolished the remnant of discrimination against homosexuals from the Criminal Code (the section in question, § 175, had since 1973 not penalized gay sex as such anyway but had in effect established an elevated age of consent of 18 years for gay sex) - in 1995, a CDU-led federal government/parliamentary majority extended the statutory social insurance system by mandatory insurance for long-term nursing care. - in 2003, the mayor of Hamburg, Germany second largest city and one of the 16 federal states, was outed as gay by coalition partner in the city’s governing coalition. The coalition broke apart; in the subsequent state election the CDU made the mayor the centerpiece of their campaign and won by a landslide. - in 2005, the CDU nominated, as their presumptive candidate for federal Chancellor after the forthcoming general election, a lady whose parents had emigrated _from West Germany to East Germany_, who in Communist East Germany had been a member of the district council of the communist state youth organization Free German Youth FDJ, who was part-time propaganda secretary in that organization, and who, before marrying her present husband, had cohabitated with him for 17 years. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/37 "2005-07-11T14:00:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This 25% tax rate stuff is just complete nonsense. Just federal taxes alone are higher than 25% for all but the lowest two brackets… > > I’ve seen people argue that we aren’t paying 50% of our income in taxes. This is incorrect, but at least it’s reasonable for somebody to (wrongly) believe this. However, saying 25% is just silly. Actually, the Congressional Budget Office does yearly estimates on the burden of Federal taxes. According to their data, all Federal taxes – including income, payroll, and other taxes – came out to an average of 20.7 percent for all Americans in 2002. [Cite.](http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=6133&sequence=0) For mid-range income earners, income taxes take about 3.5 percent of their income (after exemptions, deductions, etc), social insurance taxes take another 9.3 percent, and various other taxes add up to an average of 14.4 percent. Those who paid the highest percentage of taxes to Uncle Sam are the top 1 percent of earners in 2002, who paid an average of 32.7 percent. You are confusing marginal tax rates with effective rates of taxation, so your estimates are way, way off. State taxes do add to this burden, of course, but the assertion that Americans pay about a quarter of their income to the Federal government is, in fact, a bit high. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/38 "2005-07-11T15:57:12Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This 25% tax rate stuff is just complete nonsense. Just federal taxes alone are higher than 25% for all but the lowest two brackets. > > The highest tax bracket is 35%. I work in MA and pay another 5%. Payroll taxes are 12.4% for everyone if you include the hidden half that the employer pays. > > Right there that’s over 50%. > > I live in NH and pay outragious property taxes. (My building permit just to build my house was $6,700!) If you factor this in as well as tolls, gas taxes, sales taxes and everything else the total taxes is obviously way above 50%. > > I’ve seen people argue that we aren’t paying 50% of our income in taxes. This is incorrect, but at least it’s reasonable for somebody to (wrongly) believe this. However, saying 25% is just silly. A couple of points: Yes, the highest bracket is 35%, and it’s for households making more than about $320,000 per year, IIRC. That’s $320,000 in _wages_, not _income_. The distinction is important, because those in the top bracket get about half of their income from capital gains, which are only taxed at 15%. 15 + 35 / 2 = a 25% _income_ tax for the top bracket. In addition, they only pay SS/Medicare on the first $90,000 of wages. At $320,000 in wages, that works out to 3.62% payroll tax, or 1.81% in income tax. I’ll give you 2%. I have no idea what the MA capital gains tax rates are like, so I’ll assume they’re just like wages, making the income tax an even 5%. To recap, on wages and capital gains of $320k each: 25% actual federal income tax 05% actual state income tax 02% actual federal payroll tax That’s 32% before any deductions or shelters, which is significantly less than the 50% you estimated. In reality, the rate is even lower. When you count sales taxes, property taxes, and things like fees an permits, the average tax bills of the richest and poorest quintiles both come out nearly exactly the same - at around 19% of income. We’ve _already_ got a flat tax, and it’s nowhere near 50%. I can dig up cites for this, but my lunch break is waning, and I’ll have to do it later. A handy book to have to get it all in one place is David Cay Johnston’s _Perfectly Legal_. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/39 "2005-07-11T17:11:29Z")
**What are some concrete examples of europeans being radically more liberal?** In Denmark, where I currently am, nude sunbathing is now considered “old.” ---
**Author:** ![Axel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@Axel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441/40 "2005-07-11T19:28:27Z")
Most of it is in general attitude rather than laws, which is hard to pin down. However: Britain: No gun ownership whatsoever Foxhunting banned Equal age of consent for gay and straight people Gay civil partnerships Much higher level of secular vegetarianism than anywhere else in the world - this is based on substantial anecdotal evidence, but I’ll go and look for hard data too Other countries: Legal drug use and sale (Netherlands) Legal prostitution (Netherlands and parts of Germany) Gay marriage/civil partnership: Spain The Netherlands Belgium Switzerland (soon) Lower drinking age across all countries than in the US. EU-wide: Protection from discrimination by employers on the basis of race, religion, gender, disability and sexuality Mandatory holiday time Minimum wage Maximum working hours Those are the first ones off the top off my head. Have a read of some British newspapers to get a feeling for the general tone in that country. The Daily Mail is the most right-wing; it has many objectionable stories and I admit to negatively judging someone who reads it. The Guardian is the most left-wing, but it’s not considered very left wing really, not by Brits anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-some-concrete-examples-of-europeans-being-radically-more-liberal/310441.md?page=3)