# What are subtle/unintentional forms of prejudice to avoid when writing fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [June 14, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268 "2021-06-14T20:00:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/41 "2021-06-15T15:17:44Z")
I was reading a rather forgettable cozy mystery recently, and I noticed the plethora of hawt characters. No boobs or pecs or any body parts were described in detail, but pretty much every character was super-hot. I mean, every character. The murder victim. The cop who was investigating. The narrator’s best friend. The narrator’s rival, who would be the perfect suspect but didn’t actually do it. The victim’s spurned boyfriend. The victim’s lawyer. The lawyer’s secretary. Even the lady who ran the coffee shop across the street. All of them super-model gorgeous. It became so comical that I almost suspected it was meant to be deliberately funny. The narrator never described herself, but given how the hot cop fawned over her, I believe we were meant to understand that she too was incredibly attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/42 "2021-06-15T15:21:27Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > It became so comical that I almost suspected it was meant to be deliberately funny. Yet we take it for granted when we watch TV & movies. I think for many it’s just an extension of the need to escape our not-so-beautiful reality. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/43 "2021-06-15T20:39:56Z")
Writing other races/group as a monolith. eg: All orcs are unquestioningly loyal to the dictator and they all wear the same clothes and eat the same food or all the elves are fair and wise and kind while the protagonist’s race has good people and evil people and political factions and people with interior lives. There’s a really excellent series of posts by a historian on [the Dothraki horde](https://acoup.blog/category/collections/that-dothraki-horde/) that dissects how depictions in fiction are filtered by racist othering of non-white people into a shallow veneer of stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/44 "2021-06-15T21:08:54Z")
A propos, going beyond the written medium, there was some discussion (eg [In The Heights: Rita Moreno supports Lin-Manuel Miranda in colourism row - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-57481316)) about how in the film version of _In The Heights_ some felt the final cast was not black enough for that neighbourhood. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/45 "2021-06-15T23:29:33Z")
Having a blind person automatically have better senses. Having a gay person have issues with coming out, if they’re from a milieu where it’s not likely to impact their life much. I’ve seen a fair few things in the past few years where middle-class white people from non-religious backgrounds were hiding their relationships, and me and all my other middle-class gay friends were like huh? Tell them. It felt like the stories were being written by a person from a different generation. I’m 45 and grew up under section 28, but none of my family or wider friends gives a shit now. Having a person from a Muslim background have problems with their family due to FGM, homosexuality, an uncle into terrorism (it’s always an uncle), etc. Those can be issues for some people, but most Muslims are just people worried about job retention and house prices and whether it’s the right weather to take a jacket out or not. And that includes most of the Muslims who are gay or have terrorist uncles. Having a person with a disability be unmasked as faking it. In cop shows, it has got better, but all the same, if there’s a disability, it’s often a Chekov’s gun, there for a reason rather than just a feature, like them being from New Hampshire or liking opera. Basically, don’t have those characteristics you’re thinking of - sex, race, nationality, disability - be Chekov’s guns. Don’t shy away from mentioning those characteristics, though. They do build up a character. Never mentioning appearance at all would be weird and make it hard to tell people apart. Especially don’t shy away from mentioning if someone is non-white if you’ve stated or implied that other characters are white - “default white.” And people will notice if someone’s got a limp or a lazy eye, a turban or a kippah, same as they’ll notice if someone’s tall or short. But just have it be part of their character, not the reason they’re in the story. One tiny thing - for character names of foreign characters, maybe spend two minutes googling baby names for that area in the age they were born. I think there are more English TV characters called Nigel than have ever been born in England, and almost all of the real ones are over 60. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/46 "2021-06-15T23:36:40Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > tried to read _The Rivers of London_ series on recommendation (even though urban fantasy is not really my bag) but couldn’t get past Aaronovitch’s constant characterization of women by sexual characteristics and assumed proclivities (e.g. a “dangerous lesbian”). I did not notice that at all. In fact just the opposite with many strong female, compassionate, empathic, female characters, like his newer books: _What Abigail Did That Summer_, _The October man_, etc. Did you read like just the first? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/47 "2021-06-15T23:40:48Z")
Have you read _ANY_ Bodice ripper or Supernatural romances, mostly written by women? 🙄 > [@Melbourne](#): > > But I’ve sometimes read the small short romances I can buy in the supermarket – which are almost entirely written by women, always have a female protagonist, told from the female view, are tightly edited and tightly written – and often mention breasts and nipples. > … > Anyway, that’s by the bye. I just wanted to note that ‘hardly every’ any mention of breasts in ‘women’s writing’ is overly reductive. Yeppers, absolutely. Although usually the penis is called a “hardness” or similar for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/48 "2021-06-15T23:42:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Although usually the penis is called a “hardness” or similar for some reason. Not since the 80s, really. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/49 "2021-06-15T23:44:41Z")
I am likely outdated in a lot of stuff, to be honest, but not in paranormal romances. I get a few a year to review. In that light, I can recommend Molly Ringle. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/50 "2021-06-15T23:48:32Z")
Thanks! I haven’t read a ton of paranormal. The only one I’ve read was Black Dagger Brotherhood which was… fun, but silly. The vampires had crazy names like Wrath and Rhage. Women’s fantasies fascinate me. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/51 "2021-06-15T23:50:19Z")
I have to admit: No I haven’t. But I mean that even novels that ostensibly are not sexual in nature — political thrillers or literary fiction, for example, mention women’s body parts when written by men. I read a lot of mysteries, and the difference is striking. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/52 "2021-06-15T23:50:57Z")
Ringle’s are genre crossover and very good, _The Goblins of Bellwater_ is a good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/53 "2021-06-16T00:43:20Z")
What’s the point in mentioning romance novels in this discussion, especially the racier ones? Of course they refer to boobs and penises and everything else. That’s what they’re _for_. It doesn’t mean it’s always valid to refer to women’s breasts in any work of fiction. I mean, honestly, that’s an argument a teenager should be ashamed of making. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/54 "2021-06-16T01:12:25Z")
The point was basic whatsboutism. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/55 "2021-06-16T03:33:10Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It doesn’t mean it’s always valid to refer to women’s breasts in any work of fiction. I I agree. > [@suranyi](#): > > In women’s writing, there hardly ever is. doesn’t mean that there is hardly ever any mention of breasts in women’s writing. It just means that there is hardly an mention of breasts in women’s writing that doesn’t mention breasts. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/56 "2021-06-16T03:38:25Z")
Here is a great example from the _Decameron:_ > [@](#): > > Know, then, that there was once at Milan a German merchant, Gulfardo by name, a doughty man, and very loyal to those with whom he took service; a quality most uncommon in Germans. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/57 "2021-06-16T21:49:02Z")
The point was made that women writers : > [@suranyi](#): > > In a novel written by a man, there is almost always mention of a women’s breasts somewhere. In women’s writing, there hardly ever is. So, Women write a lot of romance, do they not? And yes, _of course_ there breasts are mentioned. Now, I read Nero Wolfe novels, and Archie loves to describe attractive females by their eyelashes “long homegrown…” etc. And uses the term “figure” (as in “trim figure”) but I don’t remember breasts in particular. Hard boiled Detective novels often talk about a woman’s legs, of course. And hardly ever a man’s legs. 😆 I do not remember any special emphasis on women’s breasts in any “mainstream” novels, written by either sex. And as I said: > [@DrDeth](#): > > If as a male writer you feel the need to mention the females breasts, then make sure you mention six pack abs or rock hard chest or something on the guys. Or just _don’t_ - unless you are writing bodice ripper romances, etc, in which case, of course you need to. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/58 "2021-06-16T21:59:01Z")
> [@oldoaktree](#): > > writers paint a picture. No, you’re thinking of painters. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/59 "2021-06-16T22:24:22Z")
It’s implicit that romance novels, especially sexual ones, aren’t included in that statement - and that applies whether they’re written by men or women. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268/60 "2021-06-16T23:11:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And as I said: Of course, that wasn’t the thing I was quoting or replying to. But you like to keep mentioning it. In threads on the SDMB, some writers feel the need to keep on repeating things they’ve already written. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-subtle-unintentional-forms-of-prejudice-to-avoid-when-writing-fiction/944268.md?page=4)