# What are the arguments against Medicare for all? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997 "2018-06-29T15:13:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/41 "2018-06-30T19:02:03Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You may be right about the Supremes, but that says more about them than about the rationality of that argument. Did the Constitution authorize the federal government to spend billions of taxpayer dollars to explore space and put a man on the moon? What federal power allowed this sort of nonsense? 😉 Did anyone ever bring a case against the funding of NASA? I’m not saying they would have prevailed, especially since the power to fund for “common Defence and general Welfare of the United States” has been interpreted pretty broadly by the court. > [@](#): > > There was no Constitutional problem enacting Medicare back in saner days, and there is no Constitutional problem with expanding it. The problem is the one I noted above: that those most influential in the political system have nothing to gain from universal health care and are going to be dinged for the costs, and they have a lot of ideologues who pander to them, currently in control of both houses of Congress and about to get ironclad control of the Supreme Court. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that I think “medicare for all” would be found to be unconstitutional. I’m just saying that if you ask the question “Is it forbidden by the constitution” you will sometimes come up with the wrong answer as to whether an action by the feds is constitutional or not. Better to ask “is it allowed by the constitution”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/42 "2018-06-30T19:36:10Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Many caregivers in the US will not accept Medicare or Medicaid. To the extent that this is true, what does it tell us? What it tells me is that a two-tier public/private system in the US would quickly devolve into the public system being a second-rate poor man’s health care, with private insurance monopolizing most of the resources and all the best doctors and facilities, for which they would pay lavishly and charge their clients accordingly. Which, really, is exactly what they’re doing today, and which is what’s driving US health care costs to such astronomical levels – because there are no cost controls and there is actually disincentive for the insurers to even try to implement any. If they had to differentiate themselves from public insurance, it would be even worse. This is exactly the reason that two-tier health care, specifically, private health insurance for medically necessary procedures, is prohibited in Canada as a condition of federal health transfer payments. Limited participation in private health insurance does exist in Europe, but only by virtue of tight regulation and a more cohesive social culture. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > If a single-payer system was implemented in the US, the scarcity issues we already have will become much, much greater. Many doctors will not be able to continue to practice because they can’t function when the government underpays them. That’s funny, because many doctors today claim they can’t continue to practice because they’re frustrated beyond endurance by the trials and tribulations of having to constantly battle insurance companies to get paid. Indeed I read an editorial some time ago claiming that potential medical school candidates were declining to enroll because for doctors in private practice, getting paid by insurers is a major ongoing ordeal. But in what way would a public plan “underpay” doctors? In my experience with single payer, service fees are negotiated with each jurisdiction’s medical association on behalf of the practitioners, and while they definitely get paid less than with private billing, doctors accept the arrangement because they get paid reliably and without hassle and with no need to maintain a large staff simply to deal with and chase down insurance companies. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > Whenever the government pays for healthcare, demand increases, because many people no longer have to concern themselves with costs and therefore want to see a doctor for every sniffle. Simple answer to that: it doesn’t happen. UHC exists in many countries; there is no need for speculation. Where I live, there is no cost at all to see a doctor – not a dime. Turns out, people have better things to do with their time than go to see a doctor for no good reason. Now, do people go to a doctor who _ **need** _ to see a doctor, and who would otherwise not do so because they couldn’t afford some outrageous amount that it would cost them for any of the myriad reasons that insurance companies have invented to gouge their customers and discourage access? Absolutely, and this is a feature, not a problem. Early diagnosis can avoid serious complications, save a lot of money and avoid a lot of unnecessary suffering, and even save lives. So to that extent, yes, UHC would increase demand, if only because millions of Americans are presently uninsured and under-insured. I’m not sure that claiming that you will be faced with greater demand because your neighbor will now have health care – the one who right now would be left to die if he got sick – is a particularly good or ethical argument. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > … young people will have to be willing to indenture themselves to government service for a long time. Hmmm… “indentured”? I sense some kind of ideological spin here. With public insurance like single payer, the doctor works on a fee-for-service basis, with fees set by negotiation with the single payer, and then is paid in full by the public insurer, usually in a seamless EFT transaction. With private insurance, the doctor works on a fee-for-service basis, with fees set by the insurance bureaucracy, and then is either paid or not, or maybe paid partially, and sometimes only after a great deal of time and effort, by the private insurer. The only major difference I see is that with private insurance the doctor may not get paid, and often doesn’t. And which is the “indentured” one again? ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/43 "2018-06-30T20:56:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The high cost of U.S. healthcare in general is an obstacle to single-payer and to other specific health plans. > > One cost is insurance service. The U.S. insurance industry employs 3 million people IIRC (I’m not sure how many of these belong in the subgroup ‘health insurance’), and furthermore many health providers employ part-time or full-time clerks to interact with insurance companies. Whether through taxes, premiums, foregone salary raises, or medical bills, American households are each paying some dollars per day just to feed the paychecks of these insurance workers and red-tape processors. > > This insurance service, which provides little value added anyway, is a major area _where single-payer plans could save large sums._ But to do so, government would need the will to say “Insurance company employees: you’re out of a job. Insurance company shareholders: your stock just tanked.” Is there the political will to do this? If not, single-payer plans will be designed to keep insurance companies involved unnecessarily; Medicare is already like that. In the U.S., insurance companies are sometimes involved in medical decisions even when they’re paying little or none of the bill. > > America needs to strip away unnecessary red-tape from healthcare. Are “single-payer” plans designed to do that? Or are they designed to just add another layer of red-tape? Add to the number of employees – many large companies have one or more persons in their Benefits Department whose job is primarily to work with the insurer on behalf of other employers. If Lee from the warehouse calls HR to complain about a claim not being covered, many employers will for ER purposes step in to find out what the problem is and if necessary battle it out with the insurer on the employee’s behalf. But I’m not sure “Medicare for all” will necessarily greatly reduce the number of employees in the health care insurance and related fields. Medicare covers only so much; it seems to be a reasonably good safety net. But nearly every senior who can afford it has some kind of Medicare Supplemental plan to help with uncovered expenses. These plans _have_ to be vastly profitable for insurers. I will turn 65 in December. I am not eligible to sign up for supplemental insurance until September (to become effective December 1). I am already getting on average 3-5 phone calls per day trying to sell me supplemental insurance, and 10-15 pieces of mail every week. When open enrollment starts in October, the TV airwaves will be inundated with commercials touting the superiority of various supplemental plans. Yes, if people no longer need insurance for catastrophic coverage, the number of privately-insured will go down. But much of the slack will be taken up by supplemental plans. I imagine employers will routinely provide such coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/44 "2018-07-01T00:15:59Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Whenever the government pays for healthcare, demand increases, because many people no longer have to concern themselves with costs and therefore want to see a doctor for every sniffle. Please post a cite showing that Medicare recipients go to the doctor for every sniffle. I sure as hell don’t. People fortunate enough to have jobs with excellent insurance also can go to the doctor with little or no co-pay. Do they go all the time also? > [@](#): > > How can the government address the scarcity? Rationing. Remember “Death Panels”? Obviously you don’t. The “death panels” that piece of shit Palin ranted about were simply a provision to pay doctors to have end of life discussions with patients well before end of life. Since most people who died are covered by our single payer plan already, it seems unlikely that we’d need death panels for new Medicare for all recipients under 65. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/45 "2018-07-01T00:21:19Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I agree with this. Having been on Medicare for four years now, I find it far too complicated and inefficient for me to want to expand it to everyone. I’ve been on Medicare for a year and a half, and I’ve found it simpler than my employer paid plan, which was very good. Granted understanding it enough before I reached 65 took some work, but since then it has been a snap. No more denials from the insurance company, no more multiple requests to certify that my wife doesn’t have her own insurance. When my wife went on it was very simple, since I had figured it out already. It’s almost as good as living in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/46 "2018-07-01T01:27:30Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > These plans _have_ to be vastly profitable for insurers. I will turn 65 in December. I am not eligible to sign up for supplemental insurance until September (to become effective December 1). I am already getting on average 3-5 phone calls per day trying to sell me supplemental insurance, and 10-15 pieces of mail every week. When open enrollment starts in October, the TV airwaves will be inundated with commercials touting the superiority of various supplemental plans. Be sure you study these plans carefully - ‘supplemental’ is a common catch-all term but there are two main types of plans. The differences are large. One type actually generates more marketing pitches because the government actually pays more for it than it pays for standard coverage. The insurance companies love that - especially when they can lock you into their (often narrow) networks of hospitals and providers. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/47 "2018-07-01T05:50:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Although I think I agree with your sentiment … I don’t understand it! 🙂 > > Are you saying that you don’t agree that higher-income people would need to pay higher taxes to achieve Medicare-for-all? Or are you saying that you, as a higher-income person, would be happy to pay such higher taxes? Or are you saying that lower-income people should be happy to use their political power to raise taxes on the rich? My personal view is that society is best served by having a healthy, well-educated population free to live however they want as long as they don’t harm others. I’m for universal health-care, and I think if you can pass a college entrance exam then college should be paid for because why wouldn’t we? It’s absolutely amazing to me that people love to go on about how great the US is, then say that things “lesser” countries do are impossible here because, um, the wealthy’s net worth would go down ten percent or so. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/48 "2018-07-01T17:11:42Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > The plans they paid for became an albatross, because either they had to pay out of pocket or take a day off and drive long distances to see a doctor. If a single-payer system was implemented in the US, the scarcity issues we already have will become much, much greater. Driving long distances to find a doctor within your plan is a feature of the US private insurance model, not of single-payers. I had never heard of that, or “is the doctor in your network” until I started reading these boards and seeing posts from Americans. I can go into any walk-in-clinic anywhere in Canada, show my Saskatchewan health card, and get service. I don’t have to worry about the doctor being in network. > [@](#): > > Many doctors will not be able to continue to practice because they can’t function when the government underpays them. And yet, doctors are practising medicine all over Canada, content in general to have a single payer who pays them at a clearly known rate, without needing to have several staffers in their clinics whose sole function is to figure out the billing systems of numerous insurance plans. > [@](#): > > Whenever the government pays for healthcare, demand increases, because many people no longer have to concern themselves with costs and therefore want to see a doctor for every sniffle. I don’t know about you, but I have better things to do with my time than going to a doctor and sitting in the waiting room, when I can just go to the pharmacy and buy some Sudafed. Oh wait, you’re not allowed to do that in the States. > [@](#): > > How can the government address the scarcity? Rationing. Remember “Death Panels”? The argument from scarcity would make sense if in the US, people were not turned away by insurance companies for being out of network, or because they were under-insured, or because the company wanted to make more money that week. You have scarcities in the US, due to the private insurance system, as your own example shows of drivcing to find a doctor in network shows. The difference is that the scarcities are entirely under the control of the insurance companies, whereas in Canada, if a scarcity problem emerges, that’s what governments are for - to find ways to reduce the scarcity. And believe me, governments are very conscious on the effects on their electoral fortunes if the health care system isn’t operating well. > [@](#): > > I suppose the government will also try to increase supply of medical personnel by offering to pay for people’s medical school and eventually, all the other programs, but that will mean young people will have to be willing to indenture themselves to government service for a long time. Medical doctors in Canada are not government employees. They’re private contractors, operating businesses, who get paid for their services by the government, at a clear, fixed rate that the government negotiates with the doctors on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/49 "2018-07-01T17:16:37Z")
I had a very interesting discussion with the Piper Cub’s paediatrician the other day. He said that he did his training in the UK and then emigrated to Canada. He practised medicine here for a while, and then thought he’d give the US a try. He only lasted in the US a couple of years, and then came back to Canada. He said that he wanted to practise medicine, not spend half his time talking with his patients about what their insurance companies would cover, and then wonder how he could provide meaningful treatment if the patient had no means to have the test they needed, or the surgery, or the medication… He found it much more personally satisifying practising medicine in Canada. “There is much more to being a doctor than getting paid” was how he summed it up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/50 "2018-07-01T17:40:12Z")
Medicare fraud is a real problem, but that’s yet another reason to expand the program to cover everyone. What is fraud? It’s someone trying to get something out of the system that they’re not entitled to. But if everyone is entitled to it, then where’s the fraud? As for most people liking the plan they already have: The problem there is that most people have no idea how good their plan is. Suppose I have a plan, and the price is reasonable, and every time I have a question, I can call up an agent, and get a nice, friendly explanation with no wait time. If you ask me if I like that plan, what do you think I’ll say? And then, if I get cancer and start racking up bills, and I try to get my insurance company to pay for them, only for the insurance company to discover that I forgot to include a hyphen in my name back when I signed up, and hence our contract is completely null and void (except for all of the premiums I’ve already paid), do you think I’ll still like my plan? But I have no way of finding that out until such time as I do get cancer. Well, maybe I never will, but the whole point of insurance is that I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/51 "2018-07-01T17:52:50Z")
**Northern Piper** , you may or may not have noticed that [I also responded to **CelticKnot**](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21056231&postcount=42). No worries, we gave much the same answers, and it’s good to reinforce the points. **CelticKnot** ’s screed bears the distinctive aroma of Republican dogma from the Holy Scripture of the American insurance lobby, a lobby that has been in mortal fear of public universal health care ever since it was first enacted in Saskatchewan and its success promoted its spread across Canada. I wanted to point out [this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=857761), in which a Doper is nominally just asking about getting a discount on his ambulance costs for a recent medical emergency. But what struck me rather shockingly in reading that whole story was how different the whole thing was, from a cost perspective, from my own experience in Canada with a similar medical situation. In both cases, thankfully, the medical problem was dealt with promptly and competently after a short hospital stay. But this person – who apparently had good insurance – was still left with a $4000 hospital bill, and additionally, it appears, the ambulance company is billing $2000 for the ride to the hospital. I shudder to think what his hospital costs would have been if he had NOT had good insurance! In my case, the total hospital cost was exactly zero. Not a dime. There was no ambulance involved, but if there had been, the maximum cost to the patient is $45, the rest is covered by the public plan, although in many cases there is no cost to the patient at all because the public plan covers all of it. And this is why Canadians love their medical system, and when the American insurance lobby tries to tell everyone how terrible it is, being “socialized medicine” and all, we just laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/52 "2018-07-01T19:58:42Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Arguments against from conservatives generally revolve around anti-statist attitudes, combined with the idea that they don’t like the idea of paying taxes to help ‘unworthy’ people. We already have Medicaid for the poor. Perfect or not, nobody objects to it. Your projection of what other people think is based on your biases and not reality. We can see the problems we’ve had with VA medical system in the US as well as those in other countries with UHC. The argument as I see it revolves around delays in healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/53 "2018-07-01T20:02:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We already have Medicaid for the poor. Perfect or not, nobody objects to it. . By nobody, I assume you mean nobody, except for leaders and members of your party? [http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/366728-gop-could-push-medicaid-cuts-in-2018](http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/366728-gop-could-push-medicaid-cuts-in-2018) [http://thehill.com/policy/finance/393028-house-gop-2019-budget-calls-for-deep-medicare-medicaid-spending-cuts](http://thehill.com/policy/finance/393028-house-gop-2019-budget-calls-for-deep-medicare-medicaid-spending-cuts) [https://thinkprogress.org/paul-ryan-tax-cuts-medicare-medicaid-f87d810ad5b9/](https://thinkprogress.org/paul-ryan-tax-cuts-medicare-medicaid-f87d810ad5b9/) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/54 "2018-07-01T20:34:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > By nobody, I assume you mean nobody, except for leaders and members of your party? > > [http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/366728-gop-could-push-medicaid-cuts-in-2018](http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/366728-gop-could-push-medicaid-cuts-in-2018) > > [http://thehill.com/policy/finance/393028-house-gop-2019-budget-calls-for-deep-medicare-medicaid-spending-cuts](http://thehill.com/policy/finance/393028-house-gop-2019-budget-calls-for-deep-medicare-medicaid-spending-cuts) > > [https://thinkprogress.org/paul-ryan-tax-cuts-medicare-medicaid-f87d810ad5b9/](https://thinkprogress.org/paul-ryan-tax-cuts-medicare-medicaid-f87d810ad5b9/) Your cites don’t counter what I said. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/55 "2018-07-01T20:46:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your cites don’t counter what I said. You said that no one objects to medicaid for the poor. I showed you citations that are your party cutting medicaid for the poor. Yes, that counters your statement that no one objects to medicaid for the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/56 "2018-07-01T21:04:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, that counters your statement that no one objects to medicaid for the poor. No it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/57 "2018-07-01T21:50:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No it doesn’t. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/58 "2018-07-01T22:01:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No it doesn’t. [Monty Python - Argument Clinic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/59 "2018-07-01T22:03:23Z")
. > [@Some English Git](#): > > Argument is an intellectual process … contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says. . ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997/60 "2018-07-01T22:09:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > :rolleyes: Budget cuts are not the same as objecting to a program. Budgets for social programs increase and decrease in relation to the economy. Right now the economy is doing better than it did 3 years ago. My statement stands. Nobody objects to the program. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-arguments-against-medicare-for-all/816997.md?page=4)