# What are the benchmarks for Black Americans to 'overcome'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683 "2009-01-23T18:52:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/1 "2009-01-23T18:52:37Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10729419#post10729419](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10729419#post10729419) In this thread Duckster says: > [@](#): > > During the Inauguration Day broadcasts, I saw/heard several comments that “We shall Overcome,” should now be changed to “We have Overcome.” > > **Biggirl** rightly points out, no, we have not. Not by a long shot. > > If anything, we’ve only just begun, but I don’t think a kiss for luck and we’re on our way is anything sufficient. So what are the benchmarks for overcoming? A fair incarceration policy would be one obvious one. But what are some others? When will black Americans finally have overcome? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/2 "2009-01-23T18:58:52Z")
While there are some things that need to be overcome—both within the black community and outside of it—the largest one is the sense of victimhood that still pervades. And the quicker that is overcome, the quicker the other things will be overcome. I’d go as far as to say that many of the other things will not and cannot be overcome until this sense of victimhood is shed. I think Obama is a great example of what come be done when energies are channeled in another direction. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/3 "2009-01-23T23:42:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > While there are some things that need to be overcome—both within the black community and outside of it—the largest one is the sense of victimhood that still pervades. And the quicker that is overcome, the quicker the other things will be overcome. I’d go as far as to say that many of the other things will not and cannot be overcome until this sense of victimhood is shed. I think Obama is a great example of what come be done when energies are channeled in another direction. This is total nonsense and based on some retarded racist notion of life in this country. ---
**Author:** ![HolyFreakingMoly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7ba0ec/32.png) [@HolyFreakingMoly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HolyFreakingMoly)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/4 "2009-01-24T00:14:53Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > This is total nonsense and based on some retarded racist notion of life in this country. Bravo! I agree with you 100%. We need to see equal educational opportunities for all children, regardless of property values in their neighborhoods. More high earning positions filled by Blacks other than sports and music figures. Those would be a couple of good starts. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/5 "2009-01-24T00:16:19Z")
> [@HolyFreakingMoly](#): > > Bravo! I agree with you 100%. > > We need to see equal educational opportunities for all children, regardless of property values in their neighborhoods. More high earning positions filled by Blacks other than sports and music figures. Those would be a couple of good starts. How would you propose that we alter the method by which schools are funded if not by property taxes? Should all schools be Federal? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/6 "2009-01-24T00:18:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > When will black Americans finally have overcome? When we don’t have to ask this question. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/7 "2009-01-24T00:21:43Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > This is total nonsense and based on some retarded racist notion of life in this country. No it isn’t. Victimhood is very counter productive and there are many black politicians exploiting it. I agree that it needs to go. I won’t say anymore until you come up with some specifics. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/8 "2009-01-24T00:30:48Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > This is total nonsense and based on some retarded racist notion of life in this country. Not really. There’s pretty good evidence that both a) people who are taught to think they will have no future will not struggle to gain it and are often likely to turn to crime, and b) people who are taught poor financial behavior (like not investing or playing the stock market) will practice that financial behavior. And moreso that they will pass this bahavior on to their children. People have to think that if they get out there and work hard that they can become something, and they need to trust and take advantage of the financial institutions that exist. When I was in college, in Japan, I read a lot of papers on their problems with bullying in schools, and the trend seemed to be due to a growing view that there was no future happiness to be expected in their lives. They’d grow up and start working until they got home at midnight, never to really see their wife or children, in a job they didn’t like. This view of there being no happy future had a significant effect. (Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find any good cites for this at the moment. But I can look harder of anyone particularly doubts it.) Here are some links to various non-Japan information though. > **[Cycle of poverty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_cycle)** > > In economics, a cycle of poverty, poverty trap or generational poverty is when poverty seems to be inherited, preventing subsequent generations from escaping it. This is known as the cycle of poverty. It is caused by self-reinforcing mechanisms that cause poverty, once it exists, to persist unless there is outside intervention. It can persist across generations, and when applied to developing countries, is also known as a development trap. > Families trapped in the cycle of poverty have few to no ... [http://www.americaninequalitylab.com/documents/cultural\_capital\_final-jan08.pdf](http://www.americaninequalitylab.com/documents/cultural_capital_final-jan08.pdf) – Their website appears to be down, possibly? But note that this is a “poverty” or “outlook” issue, not a “black” issue. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/9 "2009-01-24T00:38:00Z")
When black Americans of the same age earn the same average wage as white Americans When the percentage of black Americans who are incarcerated is equal to the percentage of white Americans who are incarcerated When the percentage of black Americans making up the U.S. Congress is equal to their percentage in the country When the percentage of professional degree holders who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country When the makeup of local and state governments reflects the percentage of black Americans in their communities When the percentage of people dependent on assistance programs such as food stamps who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country When the percentage of the wealthiest Americans who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country Those are a few of the benchmarks I would want to see reached. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/10 "2009-01-24T01:06:10Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When black Americans of the same age earn the same average wage as white Americans > > When the percentage of black Americans who are incarcerated is equal to the percentage of white Americans who are incarcerated > > When the percentage of black Americans making up the U.S. Congress is equal to their percentage in the country > > When the percentage of professional degree holders who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country > > When the makeup of local and state governments reflects the percentage of black Americans in their communities > > When the percentage of people dependent on assistance programs such as food stamps who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country > > When the percentage of the wealthiest Americans who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country > > Those are a few of the benchmarks I would want to see reached. Is there a good cite that shows these kinds of demographics accross all races? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/11 "2009-01-24T01:09:09Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > When we don’t have to ask this question. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/12 "2009-01-24T01:13:08Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When black Americans of the same age earn the same average wage as white Americans > > When the percentage of black Americans who are incarcerated is equal to the percentage of white Americans who are incarcerated > > When the percentage of black Americans making up the U.S. Congress is equal to their percentage in the country > > When the percentage of professional degree holders who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country > > When the makeup of local and state governments reflects the percentage of black Americans in their communities > > When the percentage of people dependent on assistance programs such as food stamps who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country > > When the percentage of the wealthiest Americans who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country > > Those are a few of the benchmarks I would want to see reached. Yea, that sounds deplorable. The idea that quotas can be reached is anti-meritocratic. What if there were more black people in congress than their percentage while Asians were disproportionately underrepresented? What if they were underrepresented in local and state government in Iowa, but overrepresented in Florida? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/13 "2009-01-24T01:33:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yea, that sounds deplorable. The idea that quotas can be reached is anti-meritocratic. The idea is not to try to reach quotas. The idea is that if black Americans truly overcome, if they are treated with the same fairness and respect that all Americans deserve throughout their lives, if the lingering effects of centuries of slavery are finally eradicated, then you would expect to see that reflected in basic demographic statistics. Unless you believe that black Americans have less _merit_ than other Americans, if they are truly judged on merit than they should be equally reflected in the statistics. > [@](#): > > What if there were more black people in congress than their percentage while Asians were disproportionately underrepresented? Then I would say that black Americans had overcome broad political prejudice in this country, but that Asians had not. > [@](#): > > What if they were underrepresented in local and state government in Iowa, but overrepresented in Florida? Then I would say that they had overcome the prejudices of the electorate in Florida, but had work yet to do in Iowa. It’s not about the statistics or quotas. It’s about the fact that until they are equally represented among the upperclass and the underclass, the politically powerful and the powerless, then they have not overcome. These things are not the substance of success, they are its measure. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/14 "2009-01-24T01:37:42Z")
**SpoilerVirgin** The problem here is that you are attributing any event that doesn’t benefit African Americans as the result of racial bias. Bobby Jindal is an overrepresentation of Indian Americans in Louisiana by a wide margin. I guess anti-Negro bias lost against pro-Indian bias. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/15 "2009-01-24T01:39:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > When will black Americans finally have overcome? When they score the same as whites on intelligence tests. Or better. My opinion only. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/16 "2009-01-24T01:46:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **SpoilerVirgin** The problem here is that you are attributing any event that doesn’t benefit African Americans as the result of racial bias. Bobby Jindal is an overrepresentation of Indian Americans in Louisiana by a wide margin. I guess anti-Negro bias lost against pro-Indian bias. Bobby Jindal is a single individual. It is possible for any single individual to achieve in spite of prejudices. That’s why the election of an African-American president in and of itself does not mean that we have overcome. When broad statistical measures which balance out for the variations among individuals and their circumstances indicate equality, that will be a sign that we are truly living in a post-racial world. I’m curious to know what explanation you have for the disparities in income and education that is not accounted for by unequal treatment, either current or historic? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/17 "2009-01-24T01:47:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > When they score the same as whites on intelligence tests. Or better. > > My opinion only. Why don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/18 "2009-01-24T01:50:11Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Bobby Jindal is a single individual. It is possible for any single individual to achieve in spite of prejudices. That’s why the election of an African-American president in and of itself does not mean that we have overcome. When broad statistical measures which balance out for the variations among individuals and their circumstances indicate equality, that will be a sign that we are truly living in a post-racial world. > > I’m curious to know what explanation you have for the disparities in income and education that is not accounted for by unequal treatment, either current or historic? Lack of a cultural tradition. That is of course the result of maltreatment, but I think at this point the real systemic barriers are removed. There is an antagonistic culture to education, people who don’t take advantage of what they are offered. I think it’s fair to say this now because there are lots of African Americans who HAVE succeeded. Condoleeza Rice is a better example than Barack Obama. She succeeded because her family put a high value on education. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/19 "2009-01-24T01:50:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why don’t they? That’s a question for another thread, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/20 "2009-01-24T01:53:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That’s a question for another thread, don’t you think? Probably [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683.md?page=2)