# What are the benchmarks for Black Americans to 'overcome'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683 "2009-01-23T18:52:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/21 "2009-01-24T02:00:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why don’t they? The short answer is that the tests don’t take culture into account. Things that the test expects everyone to know are not largely known in poor communities. The end results have nothing to do with intelligence. Its like calling a southerner dumb because they can’t navigate New York’s subway system. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/22 "2009-01-24T02:07:07Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > Is there a good cite that shows these kinds of demographics accross all races? The website of the [U.S. Census](http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/ppl-186_aoic.html) breaks it down into black, white and other. [Earnings by Race](http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-186/tab13ic.html) [Educational attainment by Race](http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-186/tab7ic.html) [Poverty Status by Race](http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/black/ppl-186/tab16ic.html) The Justice Department has statistics on [incarceration by race](http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/jailrair.htm). Here’s the [racial composition of Congress](http://www.thisnation.com/congress-facts.html) prior to the most recent election (I couldn’t find more recent statistics). Interestingly, blacks are fairly well represented in the House of Representatives. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/23 "2009-01-24T02:12:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Lack of a cultural tradition. That is of course the result of maltreatment, but I think at this point the real systemic barriers are removed. There is an antagonistic culture to education, people who don’t take advantage of what they are offered. I think it’s fair to say this now because there are lots of African Americans who HAVE succeeded. Condoleeza Rice is a better example than Barack Obama. She succeeded because her family put a high value on education. So what you are saying is that black Americans will have overcome when their cultural tradition, developed from years of maltreatment, supports education. And what I’m saying is that when that happens, you will see the results in the demographic statistics. I’m saying that overcoming doesn’t just mean that the barriers have removed, it means that people have taken advantage of them to the point that the differences that were initially caused by slavery and prejudice have disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/24 "2009-01-24T02:12:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Probably By the way, I wasn’t trying to evade your question. I was just a bit chary of helping to sending your thread off track. I will tell you my views if you really want to know. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/25 "2009-01-24T02:14:33Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > So what you are saying is that black Americans will have overcome when their cultural tradition, developed from years of maltreatment, supports education. And what I’m saying is that when that happens, you will see the results in the demographic statistics. I’m saying that overcoming doesn’t just mean that the barriers have removed, it means that people have taken advantage them to the point that the differences that were initially caused by slavery and prejudice have disappeared. Sure, I agree with you on that. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/26 "2009-01-24T02:17:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Sure, I agree with you on that. Thanks. I don’t normally participate in Great Debates, but that really wasn’t so bad. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/27 "2009-01-24T02:18:02Z")
When the number of whites on NBA teams equal their percentage of the populace? OH! Wait! NBA team membership is based upon ability to perform! Radical idea!----How about the same standards for all jobs? Objectivism? Nope! That would be raysis. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/28 "2009-01-24T02:22:30Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > So what you are saying is that black Americans will have overcome when their cultural tradition, developed from years of maltreatment, supports education. And what I’m saying is that when that happens, you will see the results in the demographic statistics. I’m saying that overcoming doesn’t just mean that the barriers have removed, it means that people have taken advantage of them to the point that the differences that were initially caused by slavery and prejudice have disappeared. I think this is basically correct, but it answers more, “how will we know when the barriers will be overcome?”. I was answering the question posed in the OP directly, identifying those barriers the need to be overcome. I do agree that the culture of victimhood, pervasive in areas where blacks still perform poorly, will need be supplanted by one that holds education in high esteem. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/29 "2009-01-24T02:28:24Z")
> [@spike404](#): > > When the number of whites on NBA teams equal their percentage of the populace? > > OH! Wait! NBA team membership is based upon ability to perform! > > Radical idea!----How about the same standards for all jobs? Objectivism? Nope! That would be raysis. I do believe that in the equal society I am envisioning, the racial composition of sports teams would broadly reflect the racial composition of society. You can see this in boxing, where the least privileged groups have always been the most prominent. Boxing champions have gone from being mostly Irish, to Jewish, to black, to Hispanic based on the socio-economic conditions of those groups. Baseball went through a period of high black involvement, but now there are comparatively few black baseball players and more Hispanic players. As blacks are able to find success and wealth in other fields, we will see the demographics of basketball change too. So yes, I would add “When the number of whites on NBA teams equal their percentage of the populace” to my list of benchmarks. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/30 "2009-01-24T02:33:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think this is basically correct, but it answers more, “how will we know when the barriers will be overcome?”. I was answering the question posed in the OP directly, identifying those barriers the need to be overcome. I do agree that the culture of victimhood, pervasive in areas where blacks still perform poorly, will need be supplanted by one that holds education in high esteem. The OP asked about benchmarks, which I took to mean what measures would we use to tell when blacks have overcome, so I listed the measures that I would use. As I pointed out to **mswas** , the measures that I listed are not dependent on which barriers we are talking about, or what method is used to overcome them. I would agree with both of you that cultural influence is an important part of the equation, although I would not discount the effect of a white culture that believes that blacks are not as intelligent or have other negative characteristics as a significant influence as well. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/31 "2009-01-24T02:36:16Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I do believe that in the equal society I am envisioning, the racial composition of sports teams would broadly reflect the racial composition of society. You can see this in boxing, where the least privileged groups have always been the most prominent. Boxing champions have gone from being mostly Irish, to Jewish, to black, to Hispanic based on the socio-economic conditions of those groups. Baseball went through a period of high black involvement, but now there are comparatively few black baseball players and more Hispanic players. As blacks are able to find success and wealth in other fields, we will see the demographics of basketball change too. So yes, I would add “When the number of whites on NBA teams equal their percentage of the populace” to my list of benchmarks. I agree with you. Why do you suppose there are a disproportionate amount of blacks as professional athletes? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/32 "2009-01-24T02:42:19Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The OP asked about benchmarks, which I took to mean what measures would we use to tell when blacks have overcome, so I listed the measures that I would use. As I pointed out to **mswas** , the measures that I listed are not dependent on which barriers we are talking about, or what method is used to overcome them. I would agree with both of you that cultural influence is an important part of the equation, although I would not discount the effect of a white culture that believes that blacks are not as intelligent or have other negative characteristics as a significant influence as well. Yeah. I was concentrating more on what was posed in the heading. As far as the last line, while negative perceptions exist, the bonus of abandoning victimhood and adopting a culture of education is: 1) you can do it without what others think and 2) doing so would quickly birth results to show the detractors that their beliefs were misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/33 "2009-01-24T02:54:53Z")
> [@dgrdfd](#): > > I agree with you. > > Why do you suppose there are a disproportionate amount of blacks as professional athletes? I’ve read numerous articles on this subject and was involved in a series of discussions on this message board back in the dark ages when it was the hot issue of the moment. As evidenced by the examples I gave in my last post, when you have little money, education or power, what you do have is your physical body. This can be used for various types of hard physical labor, the kind that almost every underprivileged or immigrant group starts out with. But picking cotton, mining coal, or working in a factory is not going to make you wealthy. The one arena in which physical strength and skill can, if you are very lucky, earn a lot of money, is sports. So people with little else strive to develop the skills that will make them successful athletes. Those who have the education, family backing, and money to choose from among a large variety of opportunities may choose sports, but they may also choose to become doctors, or lawyers, or artists, to start their own businesses, or to work their way up the corporate ladder. As blacks build these kinds of legacies, develop the cultural pressures toward education that are found in some other communities, and move out of poverty, they will have more choices, and fewer will devote themselves to sports. Then whatever group is at the bottom of the socioeconomic pyramid will take over – right now, it looks like Hispanics are moving into sports such as baseball and boxing where blacks once dominated. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/34 "2009-01-24T03:04:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yeah. I was concentrating more on what was posed in the heading. As far as the last line, while negative perceptions exist, the bonus of abandoning victimhood and adopting a culture of education is: 1) you can do it without what others think and 2) doing so would quickly birth results to show the detractors that their beliefs were misplaced. What others think can still have an enormous influence on educational opportunities. If white politicians won’t give enough money to schools in black communities, if teachers teach down to black students because they don’t think they can do as well (a problem that has been documented with gender differences), if private schools reject black applicants because they are afraid of disruptive behavior, if the best and brightest professors choose to become thesis advisors to white students rather than black ones because they aren’t sure that the black ones will be as brilliant or creative, the culture of education will be hindered. And I’m not sure how quick the results of education will be. It takes time to go to school and become educated, more time to become the politicans making the budget decisions, the teachers in the classrooms, the admissions committee at the private school, or the best and brightest professors. That’s not to say that a culture of education isn’t a worthy and important goal. I come from one of the best-developed cultures of education, with parents who valued academic intelligence above everything else, and I know how much that culture helped to chart my path. I’m just saying that a culture of education can’t do it alone. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/35 "2009-01-24T03:13:18Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > What others think can still have an enormous influence on educational opportunities. If white politicians won’t give enough money to schools in black communities, if teachers teach down to black students because they don’t think they can do as well (a problem that has been documented with gender differences), if private schools reject black applicants because they are afraid of disruptive behavior, if the best and brightest professors choose to become thesis advisors to white students rather than black ones because they aren’t sure that the black ones will be as brilliant or creative, the culture of education will be hindered. And I’m not sure how quick the results of education will be. It takes time to go to school and become educated, more time to become the politicans making the budget decisions, the teachers in the classrooms, the admissions committee at the private school, or the best and brightest professors. That’s not to say that a culture of education isn’t a worthy and important goal. I come from one of the best-developed cultures of education, with parents who valued academic intelligence above everything else, and I know how much that culture helped to chart my path. I’m just saying that a culture of education can’t do it alone. BUt it is the one thing that can be changed from within, immediately. I’m with you with the rest of your post. I would add that money is the least important thing on the list. Not unimportant, especially at a threshold level that goes to the basics, but the least important. Culture being the most important. Asian immigrants, for instance, far outperform the norm when they come here. Once they’re here for three generations, that are the norm. They lose the advantage of the culture that places such high value on education. ---
**Author:** ![shallora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@shallora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shallora)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/36 "2009-01-24T03:21:59Z")
As Bill Cosby himself said, the #1 – and really anymore the ONLY thing – keeping the black man down these days is . . . . . . drumroll, please . . . himself. ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/37 "2009-01-24T03:27:35Z")
“…Once they’re here for three generations, that are the norm. They lose the advantage of the culture that places such high value on education…” I seriously doubt such an affirmation. Asians, in my observations, keep their family cohesiveness, and the value of education, in high esteem. ---
**Author:** ![shallora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@shallora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shallora)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/38 "2009-01-24T03:34:21Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When black Americans of the same age earn the same average wage as white Americans They already do. If they’re doing the same jobs and have the same experience. You can’t cry foul if you find a black man who dropped out of high school earning only $10/hr, and similar-aged white man who DID finish high school is earning $20/hr. That’s apples and oranges. When black men are graduating from high school at the same rates as white men, come back and talk. Until then the only person holding the black man down is himself when he chooses not to graduate from high school. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When the percentage of black Americans who are incarcerated is equal to the percentage of white Americans who are incarcerated This is an easy one: More black men as a percentage commit more serious crimes, and commit them more often, than whites. And often it’s blacks against black crime. Once again: The only person holding the black man down is himself. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When the percentage of black Americans making up the U.S. Congress is equal to their percentage in the country Get in line behind Women, Asian Americans, and Native Americans, because they are even MORE underrepresented in Congress than blacks. Women in particular. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When the percentage of professional degree holders who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country Who’s holding them back? A certain Bill Cosby quote comes to mind. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When the makeup of local and state governments reflects the percentage of black Americans in their communities IBID > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When the percentage of people dependent on assistance programs such as food stamps who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country Do you know who the greatest participants of ood stamp programs in this country are? Poor WHITE Americans. Dirty little secret time: More WHITE Americans are on food stamps than black Americans. But I’ll bet you didn’t want to hear that. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When the percentage of the wealthiest Americans who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country When everything else above is taken care of you will naturally see this number rise as a result. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/39 "2009-01-24T03:35:10Z")
> [@spike404](#): > > “..Once they’re here for three generations, that are the norm. They lose the advantage of the culture that places such high value on education…” > > I seriously doubt such an affirmation. Asians, in my observations, keep their family cohesiveness, and the value of education, in high esteem. It’s been a while now (over ten years), but this figure was substantiated in a government report I had looked at while working on an education project. I fund it very hard to believe, as well. I think that was due to the limited exposure I had to Asians. Now that I live in San Francisco, I find it much more likely that it’s probably the case. Come to think of it, I think it was all immigrant groups that outperform American kids upon their arrival. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/40 "2009-01-24T04:05:58Z")
> [@shallora](#): > > When black men are graduating from high school at the same rates as white men, come back and talk. Until then the only person holding the black man down is himself when he chooses not to graduate from high school. You think societal influences have nothing to do with graduation rates?:rolleyes: > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I don’t normally participate in Great Debates You should. You’ve basically got this question exactly right, as far as I’m concerned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683.md?page=3)