# What are the benchmarks for Black Americans to 'overcome'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683 "2009-01-23T18:52:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/61 "2009-01-24T20:22:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We don’t, of course. What we do is we look at the information gathered, and then analyze it. If we discover that black children at a given school are on average performing 50 points lower on a 100-point standardized test than white students, we try to figure out why this is true. Are the black students inherently stupid compared to the white students? Are the teachers teaching the black students less rigorously than they’re teaching the white students? Are the black students on average getting less sleep at night, or less nutritious food in the morning, or less attention from parents in the afternoon? Is it just an amazing coincidence? > > What’s going on? > > We can’t possibly figure out what accounts for the disparity if we don’t make the measurement. Making the measurement does not necessitate any conclusion, warranted or unwarranted, about the cause of the disparity. > > You can’t figure out whether the folks in charge are racist until you find out what conclusions they draw, and then figure out whether those conclusions are warranted. Right fair enough, but that’s a bit different from what **SpoilerVirgin** was suggesting. Also, as per the funding equality suggestion, can you as a teacher think of any way to do that? Generally I find that funding inequality comes because schools are funded locally, not because people distribute it inequitably. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/62 "2009-01-24T20:29:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Generally I find that funding inequality comes because schools are funded locally, not because people distribute it inequitably. Funding locally isn’t working. Stop funding locally. At the very least, make it a statewide thing. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/63 "2009-01-24T20:36:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Funding locally isn’t working. Stop funding locally. At the very least, make it a statewide thing. Do you think parents have the right to improve their local school? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/64 "2009-01-24T20:43:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Funding locally isn’t working. Stop funding locally. At the very least, make it a statewide thing. And when Connecticut and New Jersey have better schools than Alabama, what then? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/65 "2009-01-24T20:53:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you think parents have the right to improve their local school? Certainly. I have parent volunteers that come in all the time. We need to establish a baseline financial minimum for schools to succeed. Clearly we haven’t done that so far. **mswas** , I’ve got no objection to federalizing educational funding if that’s what we need to do. I suggest going to statewide funding as an intermediate measure. The goal is to get all schools up to snuff; we need to do what’s necessary to achieve that goal. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/66 "2009-01-24T20:56:24Z")
I’m going to look at **SpoilerVirgin** ’s list out of order. > [@](#): > > When the percentage of black Americans making up the U.S. Congress is equal to their percentage in the country This requirement would seem to suggest some kind of racial gerrymandering, or mass migrations: that is, to make certain that the districts in the Senate and House of Representatives are formed in such a way that _nationwide_ racial density is taken into account at the state and county level. For instance, Washington State is [fairly white](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_state#Demographics): 88.64% white, 4.12% black. All things being equal, most of the candidates running for office in Washington State _will be white._ That’s what you’d expect to see, given the statewide demographics. Mississippi by contrast is [not so white](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi#Demographics): 62.37% white, 36.66% black. In that state there are almost _no_ Hispanics — less than 2%. I’m not sure how realistic this goal is, frankly. Black people constitute about 13-14% of the U.S. population — let’s call it 40 million people. Half the U.S. black population lives in only 9 states. If you were drawing marbles out of 50 hats, each representing racial demographics in each of the 50 states and treating black and white (and yellow and brown) marbles all equally, your chances of drawing 14% black marbles overall is not very good. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > When the percentage of black Americans who are incarcerated is equal to the percentage of white Americans who are incarcerated I think a more accurate and realistic goal would be based on rates of arrest and rates of conviction. For one thing, if the average sentence is (let’s say) 20 years, then it’ll take 20 years to flush any existing imbalances out of the system. For another, you can’t really control which people will commit crimes, or even which people will be arrested — violent crime may be lower in a state based on non-racial factors such as gun laws or alcohol — but supposedly a fair system would see that everybody who was _arrested_ had an equal chance in the courtroom. > [@](#): > > When the percentage of professional degree holders who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country And to add in the other, "when the percentage of blacks in professional sports reflects their percentage in the country. My objection to both of these is the same: you can’t control what people will do with their lives, or what they will choose. We have pretty close to 50% women in this country, but _more women go to college._ I don’t know how you can mandate equal participation in college if people just don’t want to, or for whatever reason don’t go. > [@](#): > > When the makeup of local and state governments reflects the percentage of black Americans in their communities > > When the percentage of the wealthiest Americans who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country These are probably the best goals you have listed. This is how it can and should be. > [@](#): > > When the percentage of people dependent on assistance programs such as food stamps who are black Americans is equal to their percentage in the country Availability of assistance programs and charity could vary from state to state. It’s hard to see how _national_ demographic goals will be met in this way. Suppose white voters in Utah don’t _want_ a welfare system, but a less-white state like Georgia _does._ ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/67 "2009-01-24T21:19:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Certainly. I have parent volunteers that come in all the time. Should parents be able to improve their schools through fundraising? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/68 "2009-01-24T21:24:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **mswas** , I’ve got no objection to federalizing educational funding if that’s what we need to do. I suggest going to statewide funding as an intermediate measure. The goal is to get all schools up to snuff; we need to do what’s necessary to achieve that goal. Yeah, I completely disagree with you on that one. I understand where you are coming from though. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/69 "2009-01-24T21:26:09Z")
So why wouldn’t people just vote themselves low property taxes locally if they are not benefitting from them? Or, if it has no impact on the school districts why don’t they just pick where they live based on low property taxes rather than on good schools? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/70 "2009-01-24T23:21:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So why wouldn’t people just vote themselves low property taxes locally if they are not benefitting from them? Or, if it has no impact on the school districts why don’t they just pick where they live based on low property taxes rather than on good schools? Imagine you’re a bureaucrat with the power to put this in place. Think of solutions. I don’t want to be proposing ones and have you find loopholes in them; I think ths would be a major, but surmountable, challenge, and any halfway-decent bureaucrat could solve the problem. For example, we probably would stop funding schools via property tax. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/71 "2009-01-24T23:40:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Imagine you’re a bureaucrat with the power to put this in place. Think of solutions. I don’t want to be proposing ones and have you find loopholes in them; I think ths would be a major, but surmountable, challenge, and any halfway-decent bureaucrat could solve the problem. Hmm, I am not sure that I have your faith that halfway-decent bureaucrats are in great supply. > [@](#): > > For example, we probably would stop funding schools via property tax. Yeah, we’d probably see funding for schools dry up in general as more and more kids went to Private school. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/72 "2009-01-24T23:47:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > We don’t, of course. What we do is we look at the information gathered, and then analyze it. If we discover that black children at a given school are on average performing 50 points lower on a 100-point standardized test than white students, we try to figure out why this is true. Are the black students inherently stupid compared to the white students? Are the teachers teaching the black students less rigorously than they’re teaching the white students? Are the black students on average getting less sleep at night, or less nutritious food in the morning, or less attention from parents in the afternoon? Is it just an amazing coincidence? > What’s going on? > We can’t possibly figure out what accounts for the disparity if we don’t make the measurement. Making the measurement does not necessitate any conclusion, warranted or unwarranted, about the cause of the disparity. > You can’t figure out whether the folks in charge are racist until you find out what conclusions they draw, and then figure out whether those conclusions are warranted. Would you ever, in any circumstance, accept a conclusion which ascribes a black-white difference to innate average differences? Because if you would not, then it’s pointless to to ask for studies to find out what the reason is–you’ve already excluded the very reason that is the crux of the debate: Is it nature as much as nurture that accounts for the differences? Say, for instance, someone showed that upper-income black students underscored poor white students by more than 60 SAT points…would your reaction be, “Oh; maybe it’s not malnutrition or poverty or crappy schools–but it must be teacher attitude or it must be black culture…” or would your reaction be, “Gee; maybe it is innate…”? (And that is, by the way, exactly what SAT score analysis shows.) See, I think the target is constantly moved for those who believe that performance differences are innate to the underperforming populations. They will never satisfy those who, _a priori_, refuse to accept innate differences as a possible explanation: _It’s lack of money for education_–wait minute; DC schools spend a fortune… _OK; it’s poverty at home_–wait a minute; wealthy black kids underperform poor whites… _OK; it’s lack of role models_–wait a minute; the most powerful person in the world is black and the President of the US is almost as powerful as she (Oprah) is _OK; teachers don’t think black kids can learn and don’t teach them properly_–wait a minute; black students in identical college preparatory programs underscore white students on the Medical College Admission Test by a huge margin (and again on licensure tests at the end of Med School… And on it goes. If the game is simply to prove that variables can never be eliminated so it can never be shown that anything other than innate differences account for black-white differences, it’s already been won by those who keep adding variables. There is no end to them. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/73 "2009-01-24T23:49:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Charles Blow](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/24/opinion/24blow.html?ref=opinion) has a tangentially relevant article today. He makes the point that there are some issues affecting black children beyond simple anti-academic culture. > > I see that in the classroom. When a kid’s mom doesn’t show up for conferences until we threaten to call social services, when a kid’s idea of breakfast is Diet Dr. Pepper, when a kid is so excited to talk about her 15-year-old sister’s new baby, when a kid is only slightly less illiterate than his mom, when a kid was kept awake all night by a shooting followed by dozens of sirens in his housing project neighborhood–these are all things out of the kid’s control, things that affect his or her chances of success more, IMO, than a peer culture of anti-intellectualism. > > In primary grades anyway, that culture doesn’t exist. Primary kids want to please the teacher, even primary kids from really rough backgrounds. But the ones with lousy circumstances after school are gonna have more trouble succeeding during school hours. > > It’s not coincidence that those kids are disproportionately black. Their parents had similar disadvantages, because THEIR parents had similar disadvantages. And unless something breaks the cycle, these kids, when they grow up, will have kids with similar disadvantages. > > This pattern continues across our country. It’ll take more than a scolding by Cosby to get these kids safe neighborhoods, adequate nutrition, and adequate nurturing during after-school (and school) hours. > > Daniel This is a really good post. What it doesn’t do is explain how these kids differ from poor rural white children. Appalachia has areas of grinding poverty where this same cycle keeps repeating itself generation after generation. I guess my question is, is this a black problem or a poverty problem? I don’t know the answer to that. If we had data showing that upper-middle income black students had levels of achievement similar to white and asian students I would be inclined to put aside the color issue and hope for policies to address poverty. I don’t believe that is the case if I remember the data and I do think cultural attitudes are a significant part of the reason. I have no idea frankly what the answer is. I do think that with the election of Obama we will see a lot more of this debate, and, somewhat ironically, a lot less support for affirmative action policies. I really can understand that viewpoint. With a ‘black’ president African Americans made a huge stride forward, but have also lost momentum in their case for more attention to African American underachievement. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/74 "2009-01-24T23:51:50Z")
**Chief Pedant** The problem with race as an indicator is that race isn’t easily quantifiable. What difference does Obama’s Luo ancestry make as compared to a west African slave descendant? Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/75 "2009-01-25T00:18:16Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Reverse racism? This is a misconception, no ones advocating the systemic and methodical marginalization of white people for 300 years to level the playing field. Some white people go into a panic whenever there’s some talk of righting past wrongs since some thing the world began 5 minutes ago. And others start taking things straight to exaggeration instead of staying on point. What I want to know is why there should be the same percentage of blacks in whatever job as there are blacks in the population, without consideration of whether or not any given black person is the most qualified person for that job? How long are people going to believe that “helping” black people is just treating them like children? And why is this always a black vs white thing? What about the other races in this country? Why don’t they deserve all this help and hand wringing - or need it? [QUOTE=EasyPhil] We want to get rid of racism by getting rid of racism. You don’t think it exists that’s fine but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist because you don’t see it, experience it or know anyone that does. [/QUOTE] I don’t think what exists - racism? Of course it does, and it always will at some level. What I am commenting on is the call for “helping” black people by making sure that they occupy whatever job you want to look at on the same percentage as they are in the general population, yet no mention is made of whether or not all of these helped folks would actually be qualified. And no mention is made of whether or not any other races need or deserve this help, it is always the blacks who are the oppressed and in need of help. > [@](#): > > Your comments are like those of a person that gives advice and analysis on driving a car and has never driven a car. Why would you say that? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/76 "2009-01-25T00:20:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, we’d probably see funding for schools dry up in general as more and more kids went to Private school. Here, even as more kids go to private schools, bonds for funding for schools are still passed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/77 "2009-01-25T00:24:47Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Here, even as more kids go to private schools, bonds for funding for schools are still passed. What percentage are in Private School? Schools are funded based upon butts in the seats. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/78 "2009-01-25T00:36:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What percentage are in Private School? Schools are funded based upon butts in the seats. I believe that is federal funding, not local bonds. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/79 "2009-01-25T00:37:19Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > _It’s lack of money for education_–wait minute; DC schools spend a fortune… No, it’s not money. You might find [this](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html) interesting. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683/80 "2009-01-25T00:44:22Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I believe that is federal funding, not local bonds. He wants to do away with local funding, that’s the point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-benchmarks-for-black-americans-to-overcome/482683.md?page=5)