# What are the best arguments against the idea that objective morality doesn’t exist because it can’t be measured scientifically? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2023, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218 "2023-11-16T04:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/101 "2023-11-22T22:11:37Z")
If it was a fundamental necessity, such a situation could not arise (or at least not persist for long). Or we may have to conclude that we were incorrect in thinking it was a fundamental necessity. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/102 "2023-11-23T12:33:00Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > Basic beliefs like the value of life, it’s wrong to hurt people for no good reason, it’s wrong to lie and betray people for your own gain, it’s good to help others etc Sure, but if you’re in Chattel Slavery South USA, or in Nazi Germany, you’d learn a neat trick to smooth all that over: just redefine who gets to be “people”. ---
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/103 "2023-11-23T14:38:24Z")
My point is that they still believed in the sanctity of life (and other universal values) even if they disagreed on which groups it applied to. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/104 "2023-11-23T14:51:57Z")
Well, of course I value _my_ life, as distinct from those in the group of People Who Are Not Me. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/105 "2023-11-23T15:50:26Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > My point is that they still believed in the sanctity of life (and other universal values) even if they disagreed on which groups it applied to. My point is that if a “universal” value can be stepped around so easily it isn’t universal at all. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/106 "2023-11-23T16:07:49Z")
I don’t believe that actual morality is inherited but we are wired in such a way as to get chemical rewards from responses to selfless acts and just getting along in general. Disagreeable people would likely have been exiled from tribes and family groups and not have the same reproductive opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/107 "2023-11-23T16:17:04Z")
You are right, altruism is selected for in humans. But it might not be selected for in intelligent creatures that evolved from solitary open ocean predators who go through a larval stage, to invent an example at random. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/108 "2023-11-23T16:22:44Z")
Intelligence alone would be able to recognize and remember the consequences of feedback from its own actions and might at some level appear to have some kind of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/109 "2023-11-23T21:18:25Z")
It’s difficult not to think like a human, when you are a human, and easy to assume that everything else that thinks, must think like a human. It is possible, I suppose, that along the way from chemistry to intelligent, sentient lifeforms, the various filters that exist as natural hurdles and selection criteria are universally and inevitably such that wherever intelligent, sentient life arises, it ends up being rather similar to humans in the way that it forms thoughts and how it interacts with other members of its own species and the world it inhabits, but it seems really unlikely that there is only one solution to this hugely complex puzzle. Much more likely I believe, as Larry Niven (I know, SF again) wrote: There exist minds that think as well as you do, _but differently._ We only have one example to work with: ourselves, so nobody can prove that other intelligent life would be different or the same, but insisting that it would be the same is, I think, similar to insisting that other intelligent life would look like bipedal, bilaterally-symmetric humanoids like us. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/110 "2023-11-23T21:33:05Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Much more likely I believe, as Larry Niven (I know, SF again) wrote: There exist minds that think as well as you do, _but differently._ My first thought at the mention of killing off one’s offspring was the [Gowachin](https://aliens.fandom.com/wiki/Gowachin) from Frank Herbert’s _The Dosadi Experiment_, > Gowachin young are born into a graluz, or indoor pool into which the tadpoles are birthed and live until their father tests them by swimming through the graluz, eating those he can catch. This winnowing process is used to eliminate the slowest Gowachin who betray an insufficient desire for survival. Realistically, the very old human ‘tradition’ of having double digit numbers of children because it’s a good way to insure that some of them live long enough to reproduce isn’t all that different. ---
**Author:** ![kainoskairos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5e9695/32.png) [@kainoskairos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kainoskairos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/111 "2023-11-23T23:47:25Z")
God would not be God if He was fickle or had a fairweather mind. You might be confusing when certain commands or laws God set in the Bible changed from OT to NT, but that is not because no absolute exists, but because God instructs and commands at particular times for particular peoples/events to teach about obedience, trust, and faith. When it appears like God is changing his mind in the Bible, it is not because he is unsure or didn’t know. It’s because it was for us. God is perfect, unchanging, all-knowing, and immutable. That is why if you believe in God, then there are absolutes 100%. If you don’t believe in God, then of course you’ll believe there are no such things as moral absolutes or absolutes period. So you are right when you say there aren’t because you don’t believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/112 "2023-11-24T00:03:30Z")
> [@kainoskairos](#): > > God is perfect, unchanging, all-knowing, and immutable. That is why > if you believe in God, then there are absolutes 100%. If you don’t > believe in God, then of course you’ll believe there are no such things > as moral absolutes or absolutes period. So you are right when you > say there aren’t because you don’t believe in God. A few minor problems with this view. The first has already been covered - are god’s absolute moral laws whatever god wants them to be, or are they derived from some fundamental set of morals? If the former they aren’t absolute, they are just god’s whim, if the latter how can we find what they are and do we need god at all? Then there is the problem of determining what they are. The laws as laid down in the Bible are either self-contradictory or make moral what we can determine ethically isn’t moral. (Like slavery.) Then there is the question of whether god is bound by these absolute moral laws. If you believe in the Bible, clearly not, because that would mean genocide is not immoral if god does it, and I think we can all agree it is immoral if we do it. Plus, how can we tell which morals are absolute and which are just whims? Keeping kosher was absolute for Jews, but in the NT it got thrown away to help recruitment. Keeping the Sabbath also. Sorry, god-based absolute morality makes no sense. Which doesn’t prove there is no god - we can imagine capricious gods like the Greek ones. ---
**Author:** ![kainoskairos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5e9695/32.png) [@kainoskairos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kainoskairos)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/113 "2023-11-24T00:09:49Z")
God is. Moral laws are not outside of God. They are what He is. That is why he is called I AM. Absolutes are God’s attributes. The greatest nemesis to humanity is his rebelliousness to God, meaning, we don’t want to believe we are not the masters and creators of our own lives and universe. That is the struggle that people can’t get over for those who don’t believe in God. They don’t like the idea that “someone/something” is supreme over them. Man wants to make himself God and believes only man can set the laws or absolutes which is false and man’s pursuit of God-likeness will only lead to their demise. The moment man realizes they are the created ones who exist to glorify the Creator, is the moment we see with clarity and understanding of everything else. Without this, all structures man builds will fail to stand because it is based on a false premise that man is God and determines everything. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/114 "2023-11-24T00:25:35Z")
> [@kainoskairos](#): > > God is. If only there was some, no, any evidence for this God thingy… ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/115 "2023-11-24T00:38:07Z")
Please no, that’s no fun. Can we instead hear the most facile solution to the Epicurean Paradox? 1. If God is **omnipotent** (having unlimited power or authority; all-powerful), then he has the ability to prevent evil. 2. If God is **omnibenevolent** (being infinitely good or possessing perfect goodness), then he would want to prevent evil. 3. If God is **omniscient** (having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; all-knowing), then he knows how to prevent evil. 4. Despite these attributes, evil still exists in the world. 5. Therefore, God either lacks one or more of these attributes or does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/116 "2023-11-24T00:39:48Z")
Ohh! I know that one! FREE WILL! ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218/117 "2023-11-24T00:43:47Z")
Careful - statistics show that priests who use that one are also more liable to die from cirrhosis [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-arguments-against-the-idea-that-objective-morality-doesn-t-exist-because-it-can-t-be-measured-scientifically/993218.md?page=5)