# What are the best influences on the fantasy genre aside from Tolkien? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 21, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116 "2015-09-21T16:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/21 "2015-09-21T18:36:25Z")
Andre Norton Ursula Le Guin Leigh Brackett Marion Zimmer Bradley raises serious ethical issues, but before her personal life became public knowledge, she was highly influential on the genre. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/22 "2015-09-21T19:02:54Z")
The Grimm’s Fairy Tales The Thousand and One Nights Lewis Carrol - Alice in Wonderland Frank Baum - Oz CS Lewis - Narnia Hans Christian Andersen Arthurian Legend The Mabinogion Various Mythologies (particularly Greek and Norse) Christian Mythology I think that, between those, you could probably void Tolkien from the Earth and still have everything in Fantasy pretty well covered. Obviously, Orcs wouldn’t be as well-known, but I wouldn’t say that we are dependent on Tolkien for the creation of fantasy, by a long shot. Though, certainly, he was a strong instrument in re-popularizing it as a genre for adults.\* - Re-popularizing since, obviously, Arthurian legend had been quite popular at one time and I do believe that was mostly written for adults. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/23 "2015-09-21T19:03:28Z")
Jack Vance’s work inspired George Martin among others; The magic system in D&D is based on how magic works in Vance’s Dying Earth series. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/24 "2015-09-21T19:21:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > . . . Tolkein, who hardly belongs to the Boris Vallejo crowd. Not Safe for Work, but Google “Frazetta Eowyn” – woo! Poor old Professor Tolkien would have a heart attack right on the spot! (And how anyone could ride with her for a week and not know she’s a woman is beyond comprehension. The Rohirrim must all be blind!) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/25 "2015-09-21T19:26:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Not Safe for Work, but Google “Frazetta Eowyn” – woo! Poor old Professor Tolkien would have a heart attack right on the spot! I’ll admit that when I originally wrote my previous post, I used Franz Frazetta as a reference rather than Boris Vallejo. But then I remembered that Frazetta had done illustrations for Tolkien’s work. That said, I think the resulting images were at least 90% Frazetta and, at most, 10% Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/26 "2015-09-21T19:39:53Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Poul Anderson’s _[Three Hearts and Three Lions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hearts_and_Three_Lions)_. As far as I can remember, it was the first place I saw the Law vs. Chaos (as opposed to Good vs Evil) trope that so influenced D&D and Moorcock. > > Also an early example of the “modern man thrust inexplicably into fantasy world” plot, and featured one of the first dwarves with thickly-accented speech. > > A foundational novel for modern fantasy. I came in here to say this one as well. Not only what Sailboat mentioned but also the idea of a Troll that regenerates and hates fire comes from it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/27 "2015-09-21T19:45:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Not Safe for Work, but Google “Frazetta Eowyn” – woo! Poor old Professor Tolkien would have a heart attack right on the spot! > > (And how anyone could ride with her for a week and not know she’s a woman is beyond comprehension. The Rohirrim must all be blind!) Or wear much below the waist besides a chain-mail g-string. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/28 "2015-09-21T19:47:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Grimm’s Fairy Tales > The Thousand and One Nights > Lewis Carrol - Alice in Wonderland > Frank Baum - Oz > CS Lewis - Narnia > Hans Christian Andersen > Arthurian Legend > The Mabinogion > Various Mythologies (particularly Greek and Norse) > Christian Mythology > > I think that, between those, you could probably void Tolkien from the Earth and still have everything in Fantasy pretty well covered. Without Tolkien, would we still have the large-scale epic fantasy?\* I don’t think any of the above really wrote the sort of single, long, large-scale narrative that Tolkien developed. (\*MHO: Yes, but later and less ubiquitously.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/29 "2015-09-21T19:55:12Z")
I was surprised to learn that [Sylvia Townsend Warner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Townsend_Warner) did not write _Kingdoms of Elfin_ until 1977. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/30 "2015-09-21T20:54:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Jack Vance’s work inspired George Martin among others; The magic system in D&D is based on how magic works in Vance’s Dying Earth series. Yes, Vance’s work has had an enormous influence on later fantasy writers, probably greater than any other than Tolkien ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/31 "2015-09-21T20:59:01Z")
I think TH White’s the Once & Future King was the most important Arthurian book of the Twentieth Century, until Bradley’s Mists of Avalon. (I prefer White’s, all in all, but Bradley’s feminist retelling was hugely influential.) In re Conan, Fafhrd & Gray Mouser: Note that Robert Howard & Fritz Lieber were friends with HP Lovecraft. Their books were influenced by what would come to be called the Cthulhu Mythos, (in ways obvious and not so.) Initially, the authors all chatted regularly about their works. After Lovecraft’s death, August Derleth took over as the doyenne of the Mythos, promoting its, for want of a better word, canon. The Mythos itself has become a common modern touchstone that pops up in all sorts of other artistic endeavors. It’s really kind of fascinating how pervasive the ideas have become, given that the original stories themselves are kind of sketchy, quality-wise. But I think the pseudo-scholarly tone adopted in the original Lovecraft works provide an excellent sort of “foundation” for a modern mythology. That the original works feel so dated lends a certain patina of history to these stories of antique horrors. Anyway - linkage Overview of the Mythos- > **[Cthulhu Mythos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos)** > > The Cthulhu Mythos is a mythopoeia and a shared fictional universe, originating in the works of American horror writer H. P. Lovecraft. The term was coined by August Derleth, a contemporary correspondent and protégé of Lovecraft, to identify the settings, tropes, and lore that were employed by Lovecraft and his literary successors. The name "Cthulhu" derives from the central creature in Lovecraft's seminal short story "The Call of Cthulhu", first published in the pulp magazine Weird Tales in 1928... A partial list of references to the Mythos - > **[Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos_in_popular_culture)** > > This article provides a list of cultural references to the work of author H. P. Lovecraft. These references are collectively known as the Cthulhu Mythos. For works that are stylistically Lovecraftian, including comics and film adaptations influenced by Lovecraft, see Lovecraftian horror. > Films based on, or inspired by, the writings of H. P. Lovecraft include the following. > Arc Dream Publishing > Asmodee TV Tropes entry for H. P. Lovecraft > **[H. P. Lovecraft (Creator) - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/HPLovecraft)** > > The best known author of the Cosmic Horror Story genre and the originator of the Cthulhu Mythos, Howard Phillips Lovecraft (August 20, 1890 March 15, 1937) is considered perhaps both the greatest and most notorious of all American horror … And TV Tropes again with a list of tropes that include Chuluian references > **[Cthulhu Mythos (Franchise) - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Franchise/CthulhuMythos?from=Main.CthulhuMythos)** > > An informal and appropriately chaotic Shared Universe that squarely defines the darkest and edgiest of genres, cosmic horror. It was started unintentionally by H. P. Lovecraft and his circle of peers (informally called the 'Kalem Club') who … ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/32 "2015-09-21T22:12:20Z")
E. Nesbit deserves a mention. She had a significant influence on later children’s fantasy, including that of C.S. Lewis and J.K. Rowling. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/33 "2015-09-21T22:26:28Z")
The Greek, Roman & Norse Myths are a powerful influence. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/34 "2015-09-21T22:27:40Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > E. Nesbit deserves a mention. She had a significant influence on later children’s fantasy, including that of C.S. Lewis and J.K. Rowling. I have a copy of_Half-Magic_, & Edward Eager was inspired by Nesbit. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/35 "2015-09-21T22:49:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Without Tolkien, would we still have the large-scale epic fantasy?\* I don’t think any of the above really wrote the sort of single, long, large-scale narrative that Tolkien developed. I think that length and realism are features of a writer’s personality more than they are an aspect of writing influences. LoTR is basically Heart of Darkness: the Fantasy Novel expanded to 3000 pages. So certainly the “epic” part was available for readers to read even if we voided out Arthurian Legend. And Tolkien presumably wrote a 3000 page monster because that’s just how he wrote. From HoD, we know that the same story can be told in many thousands fewer pages. And the poetic tales of the Arthurian legends are quite condensed. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/36 "2015-09-21T22:56:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > …LoTR is basically Heart of Darkness: the Fantasy Novel expanded to 3000 pages. So certainly the “epic” part was available for readers to read even if we voided out Arthurian Legend. And Tolkien presumably wrote a 3000 page monster because that’s just how he wrote. From HoD, we know that the same story can be told in many thousands fewer pages. What is HoD? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/37 "2015-09-21T23:05:58Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > What is HoD? Heart of Darkness, an 1899 novel about a group of men who treck through a hostile wilderness towards the “heart of darkness”. In the LoTR that means taking out Sauron. In HoD, it means finding and bringing back Mr. Kurtz. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/38 "2015-09-21T23:09:07Z")
It’s been mentioned before, but Robert E. Howard… and the book covers by Frazetta… can’t be stressed enough. Conan the Barbarian was the epitome of the wandering sword swinging murder hobo, and still remains the fictional barbarian archetype in modern fantasy. Although Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, I think, still deserve their time in the sun. Why hasn’t anyone made a TV series or movie out of them yet? You’d think the rights would go for peanuts… While it’s true that some finer works like HoD are influential, I did not read HoD until someone made me do it for a grade. Conan the Barbarian, on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/39 "2015-09-21T23:12:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Heart of Darkness, an 1899 novel about a group of men who treck through a hostile wilderness towards the “heart of darkness”. In the LoTR that means taking out Sauron. In HoD, it means finding and bringing back Mr. Kurtz. Thank god, I was afraid you meant Heretics of Dune. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116/40 "2015-09-21T23:59:05Z")
In the first half of the nineteenth century there was an explosion of interest in the medieval period–The Pre-Raphaelites were founded in 1848; Tennyson wrote or began his \*Lady of Shalott \*and \*Idylls of the King \*about 1832; and a bit later Gerald Manley Hopkins renewed interest in _Beowulf_. By the time Tolkien got around to writing _The Hobbit_, Britain had been immersed in swords and sorcery and knights and witches and monsters for over a century. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-best-influences-on-the-fantasy-genre-aside-from-tolkien/732116.md?page=3)