# What are the chances the Utah miners are still alive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 17, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883 "2007-08-17T00:43:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/21 "2007-08-17T19:51:30Z")
**Una** , does OSHA crawl all over your shit when something like this happens in a mine? I mean, if I climb an 8 foot ladder the wrong way I can get fined $10,000. I wonder what sort of control OSHA has over a mining operation and how the mining guys can get away with working in such dangerous and life threatening conditions all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/22 "2007-08-17T20:17:05Z")
I believe the miners are not subject to OSHA regulations. I’ve been hearing on the news about MSHA - the Mine Safety and Health guys. Apparently they have their own set of rules to play by. Whether those regulations are stricter or not I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/23 "2007-08-17T21:42:35Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] **Una** , does OSHA crawl all over your shit when something like this happens in a mine? I mean, if I climb an 8 foot ladder the wrong way I can get fined $10,000. I wonder what sort of control OSHA has over a mining operation and how the mining guys can get away with working in such dangerous and life threatening conditions all the time. [/QUOTE] It’s mainly MSHA, as Rico said, and…well, it’s a difficult thing, really. There are things where the MSHA really cracks down on folks, such as electrical problems, fires, equipment guarding removal/modification, and explosives violations. My understanding (and I could be in error, since I don’t deal with MSHA directly, other folks I work with do) is that some mining operations are just known to be potentially deadly, and there is almost nothing that one can do to make them “safe”. It’s just assumed that as long as folks are underground, there will be cave-ins, and there will be deaths, and there isn’t much that can practically be done without closing the mines entirely. To do the maximum possible level of safety known to our technology - the maximum bolting, shoring, and safety-related items, remote operation as much as possible - could cost so much that every underground mine in the US would close. Which would cause some serious problems to some parts of the country, as coal plants started running out of fuel. Surface mines abound in the West, but there are barely enough trains and routes to carry the coal that’s being mined right now. I’ll admit that what I do not understand is the bare minimum level of oxygen and self-rescue equipment required in mines. That to me should not be so great a cost that it seriously hurts the mine. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/24 "2007-08-17T22:30:53Z")
[Tunneling halted.](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/17/utah.mine/index.html) I think the odds, whatever they are, just got a lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/25 "2007-08-17T23:52:18Z")
Watching the coverage last night made me wonder-- if they had approval to do retreat mining, why would the CEO deny that was going on? I understand it’s risky, but by denying it, they just went from “the management who did the risky but profitable method of mining” to “the management who did the risky but profitable method of mining \*and then lied about it.” \* Surely the (MSHA’s?) approval to perform retreat mining removes some of their liability, right? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/26 "2007-08-18T00:15:59Z")
[QUOTE=AudreyK] Watching the coverage last night made me wonder-- if they had approval to do retreat mining, why would the CEO deny that was going on? I understand it’s risky, but by denying it, they just went from “the management who did the risky but profitable method of mining” to “the management who did the risky but profitable method of mining \*and then lied about it.” \* [/QUOTE] I haven’t heard all the statements made by the CEO, or even most, but the ones I heard, he could have been construed as saying they weren’t doing retreat mining _at the exact time that the collapse occurred._ Which would make sense to me, because typically the night crew in a mine like this is doing shoring up, inspection, and other miscellaneous maintenance work. They _could_ have been doing active mining at night, but most likely they were not. The first hit I have from the Salt Lake Tribune says: > **[Critics blast feds' approval of controversial 'retreat' mining at Crandall...](https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=6618171&itype=NGPSID)** > > Updated 7:24 AM- Some former mine safety officials believe the work b > [@](#): > > Some former mine safety officials believe the work being done in the Crandall Canyon mine was so dangerous that they question why federal regulators approved the work plan for the mine, where the fate of six miners remained unknown today. > Robert Murray, part-owner of the mine, defended the work. “This was a completely safe mining plan,” he said. > But Tony Oppegard, a former senior adviser at MSHA and Kentucky mining regulator, said the “retreat mining” being done at Crandall poses serious risks, and given the conditions in the area raises questions about the thoroughness of the MSHA review. > > (SNIP) > > The Crandall Canyon mine was nearing the end of its life and mine owners were trying to extract the last deposits by cutting out the coal pillars that were holding up the massive amount of rock above the main tunnels. > > Huge sections on each side of the main tunnels had already been mined with longwall machines. Once that coal was gone, the sections collapsed, leaving behind piles of rubble called “gob.” That essentially meant that the thick coal pillars that protected the tunnels were the only support for the mountain that rises as much as 2,200 feet above. > > (SNIP) > > In the Crandall Canyon mine, miners have for the past several months been cutting those pillars away, removing the last of the coal and allowing the roof to fall in. > > In March, the mine experienced a major “bump” - a shift in the mountain that can cause the roofs or pillars to fail, the floor to heave up, or coal to explode from the tunnel walls. > > The event severely damaged the northernmost main tunnels for hundreds of feet, according to a memo by Agapito Associates Inc., a mining engineering consulting company hired by the mine’s operators. The operators then decided to abandon mining in those areas, but Agapito determined the southernmost main tunnels could be mined if larger pillars were used to support the roof. > > “Our mining plan, when it was recommended by Agapito, was approved by the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration,” and those who question it are “incorrect,” Murray said. > > Oppegard said that when the mine operators offered that plan, it was then up to MSHA to examine it and make a sound decision based on the risks. > > MSHA coal administrator Kevin Stricklin told The Charleston Gazette last week that operators were “trying to pick up all the coal they could” when the company proposed removing pillars from the main tunnels. > > He said a roof control inspection that started on May 22 was part of MSHA’s review of the company’s proposal. Inspectors found some problems, Stricklin said, but they were corrected and the plan was approved. > > Allyn Davis, manager for MSHA’s District 9, approved the pillar mining plan along the southernmost main tunnels on June 15. Stricklin told The Gazette that MSHA would not have approved an unsafe plan. I’m not a lawyer, but I do doubt that anything at this point will change either the likelihood or the amount of any settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/27 "2007-08-18T01:33:10Z")
Thanks for the research, **Una**. I haven’t done much myself, but I saw a quote on the Washington Post by a MSHA official who also wasn’t sure what Murray meant by his denials that retreat mining was going on. Most articles I’ve seen seem to interpret his denial as it wasn’t happening, period. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/28 "2007-08-18T14:27:57Z")
As usual, China gives us some perspective on coal mine safety in the US. [Possibly 181 coal miners dead from recent flooding.](http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/08/18/china.miners.ap/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/29 "2007-08-18T14:47:14Z")
[QUOTE=Earl Snake-Hips Tucker] It was “some documentary” on The History Channel. This was a testimonial from one of the survivors. Now, I can’t attest to the accuracy of his testimonial, only my hearing it in a documentary. He (or they) went on to say that one of the many nerve-wracking duties of shore patrol was hearing those sounds, knowing that there was nothing they could do, until, finally, there were no more sounds. I’m fuzzy on why there was no attempt to rescue them, but I seem to recall that they did mention this, too. And in conclusion, let me retract “USS Arizona.” I know that there were quite a few ships sunk, and I can’t say for sure that they were referring specifically to the Arizona. [/QUOTE] There were apparently lots of men trapped on several ships, and some rescue attempts were successful. Other attempts ended in disaster, as torches used in cutting through hulls hit pockets of flammable/explosive gasses trapped within the hull. I There few a bunch of references online if you Google **rescue attempts trapped “pearl harbor”**. I’m not seeing any information about how many atempts were successful, but [this site](http://www.de220.com/Pearl%20Harbor/Pearl%20Harbor.htm) has pictures of hulls with holes cut into them during rescue attempts. ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/30 "2007-08-18T19:07:41Z")
Posted by **Boyo Jim** \ “There few a bunch of references online if you Google rescue attempts trapped ‘pearl harbor’. I’m not seeing any information about how many atempts were successful, but this site has pictures of hulls with holes cut into them during rescue attempts” \ Thanks for the link **Boyo** , It has some photographs of the Pearl Harbor attack I’ve never seen before. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883/31 "2007-08-26T13:46:07Z")
[The chances have pretty much dropped to zero.](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/25/utah.mine/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-chances-the-utah-miners-are-still-alive/415883.md?page=1)