# What are the conservative arguments against single payer health care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974 "2015-02-18T03:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/141 "2015-02-20T11:41:06Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > A few months ago, we learned about a scandal in the Veterans Affairs health care system. Many veterans had died while waiting for medical services. Meanwhile, government employees had run an elaborate cover-up to conceal the facts about lengthy wait times and shoddy services. > > Perhaps conservatives don’t like the prospect of having their healthcare controlled entirely by the same government that did that. If so, wouldn’t the veterans, the ones most clearly affected by the scandal, be trying to get out from under the VA? But they’re not. They’re mad as hell, but their reaction has been to pressure Congress to put more money into VA and to improve its administration. [Legion thanks Congress for swift response](http://www.legion.org/veteranshealthcare/222736/legion-thanks-congress-swift-response): > [@](#): > > The House and Senate both passed bills that will allow Department of Veterans Affairs patients, who have been waiting unreasonable amounts of time for appointments, to see non-VA providers. > > The leader of the nation’s largest veterans service organization added that such an emergency measure must only be a stop-gap remedy while the VA health-care system is realigned to better meet patient demand. The legislation came after independent reports showed that more than 57,000 veterans were waiting 90 days or more for VA appointments and another estimated 60,000 were denied appointments after requesting them. [LEADING VETERANS GROUPS RELEASE FUNDING BLUEPRINT TO ADDRESS VA ISSUES](http://www.vfw.org/): > [@](#): > > Four of the nation’s leading veterans service organizations—AMVETS (American Veterans), DAV (Disabled American Veterans), Paralyzed Veterans of America (Paralyzed Veterans) and the VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars)—released The Independent Budget for the Department of Veterans Affairs: Budget Recommendations for FY 2016 and FY 2017. The report outlines projected funding requirements for the programs administered by the VA. The Independent Budget veterans service organizations (IBVSOs) are pleased to see that the Administration has committed to investing significant new resources to the VA, particularly for health care. The Administration recommends $63.2 billion in total medical care for FY 2016 and approximately $66.6 billion for total medical care for the advance appropriations for FY 2017, an amount that actually exceeds the $66.4 billion advance appropriations recommendation contained in The Independent Budget (IB) report. The IBVSOs appreciate the fact that the VA may finally be directing sufficient resources to address the serious access problems and lack of capacity that have plagued the health care system. > > … > > Ultimately, it is imperative that VA invest new resources appropriately ensuring that veterans gain timely access to the best quality care, and receive ratings decisions that are done correctly the first time. The VA must continue to take positive steps to regain the trust of veterans who rely on the system after dealing with the scandal that embroiled the VA health care system for most of the past year. (Can’t seem to link directly to the article, but it’s on the VFW website, under “News” dated February 3, 2015.) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/142 "2015-02-20T11:47:39Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Perhaps conservatives don’t like the prospect of having their healthcare controlled entirely by the same government that did that. So take advantage of federalism and the private medial sector: Feds provide funding, states set up the implementation locally, with all doctors in private practice providing the actual services. That way, you have 51 different systems of health care delivery (counting the VA as one). No-one government controls the entire system, and if one state system is markedly better, others will follow. That’s the model of federalism as a laboratory: each state implements the system according to its own local needs, and is free to innovate to find better ways to deliver the service. Plus, by keeping the medical profession private, you’re relying on the doctors to find new and innovative ways to deliver services, outside of the ER. Single payer does not automatically mean a single government monopoly. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/143 "2015-02-20T13:20:57Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Why can’t we just be like Canada! > > Seriously everytime the discussion turns to Canada I just stop caring. At. All. Good for you you like your system. I couldn’t give two shits about it myself but knock yourself out. I would not wish to be reminded of a nearby place whose system refutes my arguments, either. This is the real handwaving being done here. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/144 "2015-02-20T13:51:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You said “the disaster of private health insurance”. That’s the hyperbole that is laughable. Agreed that lots of folks don’t like their healthcare/insurance. But [something like 2/3 of the population are happy with their care.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/165998/americans-views-healthcare-quality-cost-coverage.aspx) That’s far from a disaster. Yes, Americans are generally happy with their care, just like every other industrialized nation that spends far, far, far less per capita on their care. We spend 50% more than any other nation, as a % of GDP, and still have millions of people who are trading off health care for other necessities. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/145 "2015-02-20T13:56:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Why can’t we just be like Canada! > > Seriously everytime the discussion turns to Canada I just stop caring. At. All. Good for you you like your system. I couldn’t give two shits about it myself but knock yourself out. Say that weak-ass shit to your boss, and find out how long you stay employed. “Sure, our company is paying 50% more than our competitors for this service, but our service is clearly better. Yes, our competitors are just as satisfied with their service as we are with ours, but who cares about their system?” We dump an additional 6-7% of our GDP into a service and get nothing more in return, and the supposed “businessmen” of our political system think it’s totally OK. ---
**Author:** ![Syne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Syne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syne)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/146 "2015-02-20T14:37:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not a conservative but I do have objections to single payer. My main objection is one of principle. I don’t think government’s proper role is to pay for people’s healthcare. On that score, arguments about efficiency of other country’s systems are unpersuasive. I think this is a major disconnect in discussing this topic. Not only do they not acknowledge the differences we have in this country vs. others, I simply don’t care. There are many things that theoretically can be done more efficiently if they were centralized. I think the main difference is that US companies employ people unnecessarily in the insuring and administration of health care, which creates profitable markets that support the livelihoods of a good portion of the population. This is not an argument to maintain the status quo, just a fact. People wanted to know where all that extra spending goes with no return. Well there’s your answer. > [@](#): > > Taking it one step further, even if we were to defeat this argument that the government’s role was to pay for people’s healthcare then it should be in the least intrusive way possible. A voucher system may be workable but I’ve not given it a lot of thought. Having a the government be the monolithic entity that controls and centralizes the payment is not the least intrusive way to implement. It’s not really all that intrusive. You just wipe out all the insurance companies, merge the services into one, the fed legislates the costs and you send them the bill. In the process, you would wipe out tens of billions of dollars in inefficient spending, on things like $100 boxes of Kleenex, to the inflated CEOs bonus at Medisure Inc. > [@](#): > > A more pragmatic objection is that having single payer stifles innovation. Assume there is a drug that can treat some condition that afflicts 100,000 people. The drug will cost X dollars to bring to market with a risk of 25% it will never pan out. With single payer, the government can fix the price it will pay for this drug, let’s say that is Y/unit. If Y x 100,000 is less than X plus an acceptable profit margin as well as an amount to compensate for risk, this drug will never be created. This type of analysis would apply to all sorts of innovations - we’d never know what didn’t get pursued. I work in clinical trails and it really doesn’t work this way. While it’s true that single-payer governments get better deals on drugs, it’s not because they fix the price, it’s because they have monolithic purchasing power and buy in bulk. No different than you going to Costco vs. your local grocery store. Is your argument really that big pharma relies on the inefficient spending of disparate hospitals in order to fund their ventures? > [@](#): > > That being said, most of my opposition is defeated with antipathy. I have good insurance and I’ve used it for myself and my family. The experience on multiple occasions was abysmal in every way possible. What we have/had doesn’t work. For that I’m willing to try something else. Not necessarily anything else, but something. I would prefer smaller trials as experiments over national efforts that become immediately entrenched regardless of the efficacy. That’s really too bad. As a Canadian, one of the main arguments I hear (really the only compelling one) is that those in the US with insurance are treated quickly and treated like valued customers. I can’t speak to that, but I can say that my experience here in Canada has been positive. I tore my ACL last December. Had my consult in January and surgery in February. 1yr later and I’m almost 100%. It didn’t cost me a dime out of pocket and it was elective. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/147 "2015-02-20T15:34:26Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I would assume the Demand is already in place, with your 300 million + population. But at present paying for the Supply is uncertain for many. Demand is a function of cost and supply. If a good is perceived to be ‘free’ and available, demand is going to go up. Paradoxically enough, making health care “free” may not help, especially on preventative care. Vaccines, for example, are free or subsidized in most states, but vaccination before the age where it is required to enter school is not much different when it is “free” vs. anywhere else. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/148 "2015-02-20T15:38:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Why can’t we just be like Canada! > > Seriously everytime the discussion turns to Canada I just stop caring. At. All. Good for you you like your system. I couldn’t give two shits about it myself but knock yourself out. Why? From what I can gather, their system has better quality and is more affordable than ours. The polling bears this out. The health outcomes bear this out. Why wouldn’t we want to emulate a system that’s better than ours? If it’s not better than ours, why are so many more Canadians happy with their system than Americans are with our system? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/149 "2015-02-20T15:48:05Z")
> [@Syne](#): > > It’s not really all that intrusive. You just wipe out all the insurance companies, merge the services into one, the fed legislates the costs and you send them the bill. Personally, I would not recommend centralising the cost schedule and payer with the federal government. You can’t have a “one-size-fits-all” cost schedule in a country as huge and diverse as the US. That’s why I’ve mentioned federalism in my earlier post. The strength of a federal state is that the federal government can set general policy and provide funding, but it gets implemented by the states at the local level. Let the states negotiate the local cost structure with the medical community, based on local conditions, and be the single-payer in the state. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/150 "2015-02-20T16:25:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Personally, I would not recommend centralising the cost schedule and payer with the federal government. You can’t have a “one-size-fits-all” cost schedule in a country as huge and diverse as the US. > > That’s why I’ve mentioned federalism in my earlier post. The strength of a federal state is that the federal government can set general policy and provide funding, but it gets implemented by the states at the local level. Let the states negotiate the local cost structure with the medical community, based on local conditions, and be the single-payer in the state. Followed by immediate lawsuits because Utah and Texas don’t cover abortion. And whenever one state covers something and another doesn’t, equal protection means that the rights of the patient are being violated. Any “general policy” the federal government sets is going to be challenged because a state like North Dakota is going to have lower health care costs than Mississippi or New York. So no fair - they have better benefits! The major problems of health care inflation are going to be there whether we have single payer or not. That’s why health care costs are increasing almost at the same rate in Europe as in the US, and why they are going to face rationing just like we are. They are starting from a lower base, but eventually, any country anywhere is going to have to ration. It is a question of who is best qualified to do that - the government, or insurance companies, or whoever else pays the bills. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/151 "2015-02-20T18:06:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > They’re “happy” relative to what? Polls like that have limited value if the responders don’t have anything to compare their experiences to, or are unaware, say, of the economic impacts of the systems they are “happy” with. It’s amusing that you start with this, then go on to list other polls from other countries that appear to suffer from the same problem you identify at the onset. The point is that you calling it _‘the disaster of private health insurance’_ is mostly empty rhetoric. > [@Grim\_Render](#): > > But you do feel its the governments role to provide a basic education? A military for defense, police, courts, a lawyer if you are accused and cannot afford one, subpoena witnesses who may not want to appear, etc? What separates healthcare from the other duties of government if I may ask? Education - no (if it must be yes it should be through vouchers) Military - yes Police - yes Courts/lawyer/subpoena - yes Healthcare can be provided by the individual - other things cannot, or there would be significant externalities to doing so. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you? > > I live in a single payer country, and its not the only one I’ve lived in. I’ve always had the possibility of going to insurer A or insurer B. Or pay out of pocket. The difference is that I’ve also been free to utilize a government option at no added cost. > > You seem to be operating under the assumption that there are no insurers or private health care in single payer countries. I actually called this out in the part you quoted - _“while ignoring the possibility of supplemental payers for the sake of simplicity”._ You’ve paid an added cost for the government option - just up front with no choice not to. If there was a single payer option that let everyone opt out, that’d be more palatable. I don’t think that’s a workable alternative for many reasons. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > A question for **Bone** and **XT** : what choice is important to you? I’m afraid I’m not following the argument. > > If you’re living in a country where all medical procedures are covered if directed by a doctor, and you don’t have any premiums to pay, and no co-pays, and you never have to deal with the insurer, what do you want to choose between? Can I agree to have a co-pay and I pay less for my premiums (taxes)? If I have a private doctor that directs a certain treatment but the government doctor disagrees, do I get it? How long do I have to wait? Can I opt out? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Single payer does not automatically mean a single government monopoly. True - this is why I said: > [@Bone](#): > > That being said, most of my opposition is defeated with antipathy. I have good insurance and I’ve used it for myself and my family. The experience on multiple occasions was abysmal in every way possible. What we have/had doesn’t work. For that I’m willing to try something else. Not necessarily anything else, but something. I would prefer smaller trials as experiments over national efforts that become immediately entrenched regardless of the efficacy. > [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I would not wish to be reminded of a nearby place whose system refutes my arguments, either. This is the real handwaving being done here. Does it refute the argument that providing health care is not the proper role of government? > [@Syne](#): > > It’s not really all that intrusive. You just wipe out all the insurance companies, merge the services into one, the fed legislates the costs and you send them the bill. In the process, you would wipe out tens of billions of dollars in inefficient spending, on things like $100 boxes of Kleenex, to the inflated CEOs bonus at Medisure Inc. Oh totally - wiping out all insurance companies isn’t intrusive at all. Legislating costs is not intrusive, so called unnecessary businesses as a whole right? Oh that’s right, you’re in Canada! > [@](#): > > I work in clinical trails and it really doesn’t work this way. Let me know when you’re in control of R&D budgets. > [@](#): > > While it’s true that single-payer governments get better deals on drugs, it’s not because they fix the price, it’s because they have monolithic purchasing power and buy in bulk. No different than you going to Costco vs. your local grocery store. Is your argument really that big pharma relies on the inefficient spending of disparate hospitals in order to fund their ventures? I like Costco. I shop there often. Sometimes though, I don’t. Factors that influence that choice are: They are crowded, parking is a pain, they are far away, I don’t always need a large quantity, they don’t have the precise product I want, etc. I have a choice and often make that choice to buy the exact same product or similar one at a higher cost because other options provide greater utility. I’d be rather upset if I was forced to shop at Costco for everything, and I’d have to pay Costco even if I chose to shop somewhere else. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why? From what I can gather, their system has better quality and is more affordable than ours. The polling bears this out. The health outcomes bear this out. Why wouldn’t we want to emulate a system that’s better than ours? If it’s not better than ours, why are so many more Canadians happy with their system than Americans are with our system? Like I said at the onset - I don’t think it’s the proper role of government to provide for everyone’s healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/152 "2015-02-20T20:27:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > My relative was living in SF. > > I don’t laugh at any of these things. I just don’t think it’s the proper role of government to provide people with certain things, mobile phones included. The thread asked for arguments against single payer - this is my main argument. It’s actually quite a common position. Any argument that speaks to efficiency of single payer or other systems are disconnected from the reality that a large portion of the country like me don’t think the government should not be paying for health care. I live in the Bay Area also. I doubt it is policy to try to push stuff on people that they don’t need, no matter what one dingbat did. Cite that a large number of people oppose Medicare? Because that is exactly what we’re talking about. If we went to a single payer system we’d probably just extend Medicare to everyone. Unfortunately I think that you might be correct that a large number of people think that those not virtuous enough to be able to pay for their own healthcare should be SOL. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/153 "2015-02-20T20:39:07Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Cite that a large number of people oppose Medicare? Because that is exactly what we’re talking about. If we went to a single payer system we’d probably just extend Medicare to everyone. My claim wasn’t about Medicare specifically, but about the role of government providing health care. From [here](http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/section-4-political-compromise-and-divisive-policy-debates/): > [@](#): > > Overall, the public is divided over how far the government should go in providing health care. About half (47%) say the government has a responsibility to make sure all Americans have health care coverage, while 50% say that is not the responsibility of the federal government. > > … > > while half say it isn’t the government’s responsibility to make sure all have health care coverage, relatively few want the government to get out of the health care system entirely. Rather, 43% say it’s not the government’s responsibility to ensure health care coverage for all, but believe the government should “continue programs like Medicare and Medicaid for seniors and the very poor.” Only 6% of Americans go so far as to say the government “should not be involved in providing health insurance at all.” This is similar to what I stated initially - that providing health care for everyone is not the proper role of government, but there should exist a safety net for the elderly or indigent. It’s a little different, and of course the numbers aren’t precise, but the gist is similar - A large number of people don’t think health care is the proper role of government. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/154 "2015-02-20T20:52:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > My claim wasn’t about Medicare specifically, but about the role of government providing health care. From [here](http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/section-4-political-compromise-and-divisive-policy-debates/): > > This is similar to what I stated initially - that providing health care for everyone is not the proper role of government, but there should exist a safety net for the elderly or indigent. It’s a little different, and of course the numbers aren’t precise, but the gist is similar - A large number of people don’t think health care is the proper role of government. There could be safety nets which don’t involve single payer plans. After years of crap about how ACA is going to wreck the economy and lead to death panels and keep you from your doctor, I’m surprised that your number isn’t higher than 50%. And your philosophical opposition to single payer would seem to me to still hold for the elderly and the poor. Many people fear change, especially when there are a lot of people crying doom. They’d almost certainly be just as satisfied with single payer. As for satisfaction with healthcare, that has to involve satisfaction with ones doctor, which is likely because of your choice. But remember, people are happy with their particular congresscritter despite thinking Congress as a whole stinks. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/155 "2015-02-20T21:01:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not sure what you mean. It is more a response to attempts to limit medical costs than UHC - I first noticed it working on our DRG system. If I’m getting charged $20 to empty my bedpan, I want to know it, not have it lumped into some big bill. If I’m paying someone $20 to change my client’s bedpan I want to know it even more. > [@](#): > > What I was talking about was, we implement single payer, and the government then says “this is what we pay for X, and no more”. Then doctors (and hospitals and clinics) charge for X, and then charge for Y that used to be included under X. Or, as I mentioned, the hospital changes differently for someone admitted thru the ER vs. referral from the SNF. Or hundreds of other ways of “gaming the system”. That’s not more efficient. > > Regards, > Shodan Splitting out the charges is fine with me. If a hospital is getting reimbursed for X, why should they have to include Y and Z also? I’m suspicious of big lumpy categories. Your example is the hospital gaming the system. Since we know that hospitals quite close geographically charge very different rates for procedures, I’m sure this goes on all the time. I was wondering about patients gaming the system. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/156 "2015-02-20T21:07:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > A large number of people don’t think health care is the proper role of government. And the [health insurance lobby](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/06/13/499093/health-care-insurers-spent-100-million-to-combat-the-affordable-care-act/) spends millions every year to make sure they keep thinking that. So does the AMA. Back in the early 60s Saint Ronnie Reagan (back before he became a saint) [warned everyone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Speaks_Out_Against_Socialized_Medicine) that if Medicare was enacted, it would be the end of freedom as we know it, it would enable the darkness of communism to exert its fatal grip over America, and someday Americans would be telling their children, and their children’s children, what it was once like when America was free. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/157 "2015-02-20T21:07:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Demand is a function of cost and supply. If a good is perceived to be ‘free’ and available, demand is going to go up. > Regards, > Shodan Wander into your local clinic and ask for an MRI because you feel like one and see what happens. Demand will go up. The question is whether unnecessary demand will go up. And if so, will demand for unnecessary expensive stuff go up? Doctors are gatekeepers for visits to expensive specialists, at least in many cases, so someone asking for an unnecessary procedure should get politely told no. If they aren’t, it might be the profit motive at work, not a single payer plan. We a;ready have Medicare, and my insurance at least has a very low co-pay for office visits, so this increase in demand should be happening in much of the country already. I’m sure there are a few little old ladies who go to the doctor for conversation, but is this a big problem today? Hasn’t hit the papers if so. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/158 "2015-02-20T21:07:52Z")
I for one would like to express my gratitude to the American population for voluntarily taking a collective horse-dick ass-fucking from big pharma, allowing it enough gross profit to fund research that eventually benefits my country when the reasonably priced meds get to us so we can sell them back to you. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/159 "2015-02-20T21:14:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Excellent…you should have no trouble, then, in showing that the individual burden on the average American is spectacularly higher than on the average Canadian, then. All you have to show is that the average American pays more in taxes and health care costs on a monthly basis than the average Canadian, and that this difference is so stunningly spectacular that it’s obvious to all. Showing me that the US pays more as a country does not demonstrate this, however. WTF? The US pays over $8.5K per capita for healthcare, Canada a bit over $4.5K in US dollars. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_%28PPP%29_per_capita). That is not out of pocket costs. That is total costs, whether it comes from the patient, his employer, or from taxes. A cut down to the Canadian level would significantly help both patients and employers, make Medicare good for much longer (as the lower than expected increase in costs is pushing out the time it runs into trouble already) and perhaps let us lower taxes also. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974/160 "2015-02-20T21:21:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Followed by immediate lawsuits because Utah and Texas don’t cover abortion. > > And whenever one state covers something and another doesn’t, equal protection means that the rights of the patient are being violated. No, it doesn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-conservative-arguments-against-single-payer-health-care/712974.md?page=9)