# What are the evidence that Russia is responsible for the destruction of MH17 flight in Ukraine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541 "2015-11-25T13:23:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/1 "2015-11-25T13:23:59Z")
Just had a conversation with a coworker who stated that there’s no actual evidences that Russia was responsible for the downing of flight MH17 (neither directly or by having provided the weapon used to the Ukrainian rebels) and even that Russia provided convincing evidences to the contrary. That was amongst a chat about how media, even the most respectable, just all follow (swallow?) the same lines provided by various propaganda/PR offices, including governmental ones. In most cases like that I don’t pay much attention, but this coworker is quite educated, doesn’t typically buy into conspiration theories, and isn’t particularly supportive of Putin. So, I thought about it and besides the general statements about Russian guilt read in the media and even here, I don’t really remember what are the actual evidences against Russia, if any. So, I’m turning to well informed dopers. Could have been posted in GQ, but Putin policies seems to be typically an heavily loaded topic, so I expect arguments and picked GD instead. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/2 "2015-11-25T13:40:27Z")
Well, the missile system presumed to be used was possessed by both sides, so the physical evidence of the attack does not give you a definitive answer. However, while the rebels had been given SAM units, they don’t appear to have been given any aircraft. Since the Ukraine wasn’t engaged with an enemy possessing aircraft, they wouldn’t have any reason to fire theirs at any aircraft, much less an aircraft of that type, coming from that direction. So, the rebels had a reason to shoot at the aircraft, and the weapons necessary to do it. The Ukraine had weapons, but no non-tinfoil reason to shoot at the airliner. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/3 "2015-11-25T14:43:50Z")
The Dutch Safety Board concluded that the airplane was downed by a 9N314M warhead carried by a 9M38 series of missile launched from a Buk surface to air system. They also concluded that the missile flight path originated in an area of 320 km[sup]2[/sup] in the east of Ukraine. > **[Crash MH17, 17 July 2014](https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/page/3546/crash-mh17-17-july-2014)** > > The Dutch Safety Board is investigating the accident to flight MH17 which occurred at Thursday 17th of July 2014 in the region of Donetsk (Ukraine). Now obviously the report is from a government office so given your friend’s distrust I doubt it’ll matter. Though why, given the overwhelming centralized authority of the Russian government compared to the Dutch, he would give their story more credibility I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/4 "2015-11-26T04:03:53Z")
Seems like it’s been answered already, but curious: > [@](#): > > Just had a conversation with a coworker who stated that there’s no actual evidences that Russia was responsible for the downing of flight MH17 (neither directly or by having provided the weapon used to the Ukrainian rebels) and even that Russia provided convincing evidences to the contrary. What is the convincing evidence that Russia has provided, in your or your co-workers minds, that shows Russia didn’t do it or have any hand in it? I suppose if you want to make the case that the ‘Ukrainian rebels’ are completely dissociated from Russia that it would be completely on them and no fault of the Russians that some schlubs used a Russian ground to air attack system to take down a jet, but that doesn’t seem to be what you meant so thought I’d ask. > [@](#): > > n most cases like that I don’t pay much attention, but this coworker is quite educated, doesn’t typically buy into conspiration theories, and isn’t particularly supportive of Putin. There are several 9/11 Truther types who are fairly well educated and they make the claim all the time that they don’t ‘typically buy into conspiration(sp) theories’ either. 😛 Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/5 "2015-11-26T04:47:29Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Just had a conversation with a coworker who stated that there’s no actual evidences that Russia was responsible for the downing of flight MH17 (neither directly or by having provided the weapon used to the Ukrainian rebels) and even that Russia provided convincing evidences to the contrary. Hopefully his/her convincing counter-evidence is not the infamous [photoshopped image](https://globalvoices.org/2014/11/15/russia-photoshop-kremlin-mh17-ukraine-crash/) which was briefly shown on russian media before being thoroughly debunked. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/6 "2015-11-26T15:40:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What is the convincing evidence that Russia has provided, in your or your co-workers minds, that shows Russia didn’t do it or have any hand in it? . > [@Mijin](#): > > Hopefully his/her convincing counter-evidence is not the infamous [photoshopped image](https://globalvoices.org/2014/11/15/russia-photoshop-kremlin-mh17-ukraine-crash/) which was briefly shown on russian media before being thoroughly debunked. I’ve no clue what evidences he was refering to, the conversation didn’t last that long. It just made me realize that I had no clue what were the actual evidences _against_ Russia. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/7 "2015-11-26T16:03:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’ve no clue what evidences he was refering to, the conversation didn’t last that long. > > It just made me realize that I had no clue what were the actual evidences _against_ Russia. Oh…I thought you were saying it was convincing evidence to you. You should ask him. Most of the evidence in this is circumstantial. But when you weigh it all together it’s a pretty compelling picture unless one is into CTs or false flag operations played by the Ukraine (or the EU/US or martians or something). It all points back to Russia being culpable at some level. I doubt they ordered the jet shot down at the highest levels (i.e. I don’t expect that Putin while smoking a stogie with his feet propped up on a convenient peasant and drinking a vodka martini, shaken, not stirred reached over to the big red phone and said ‘take it down’ before taking off his shirt and shooting a bear), but at a minimum they gave technical advice and advisers as well as the weapons themselves to the ‘rebels’ who did the deed. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/8 "2015-11-26T16:56:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I doubt they ordered the jet shot down at the highest levels (i.e. I don’t expect that Putin while smoking a stogie with his feet propped up on a convenient peasant and drinking a vodka martini, shaken, not stirred reached over to the big red phone and said ‘take it down’ before taking off his shirt and shooting a bear), but at a minimum they gave technical advice and advisers as well as the weapons themselves to the ‘rebels’ who did the deed. I personally don’t think that the rebels themselves thought they were shooting down an airliner. They [claimed](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jul/20/john-kerry/kerry-ukrainian-separatist-bragged-social-media/) to have brought down a military transport shortly after MH17 went down, then deleted that post when it was obvious that there weren’t any transports shot down that day. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/9 "2015-11-26T17:30:35Z")
The [intercepted communications](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw) are pretty damning. There were also a couple of photos doing the rounds on social media (so not of substantiated provenance): one of a Buk missile launcher in the rebel-controlled town near where the shootdown took place and another of a Buk with one missile missing being driven away from there. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/10 "2015-11-26T17:48:50Z")
[Here](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html)’s a link with the alleged photos of the Buk (and it was two missiles missing) as well as a written transcript of the intercepted communications. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/11 "2022-11-17T22:35:50Z")
> **[MH17: Three guilty as court finds Russia-controlled group downed airliner](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63637625)** > > A Dutch trial finds a missile supplied by Russia killed 298 people on board MH17 over Ukraine in 2014. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-evidence-that-russia-is-responsible-for-the-destruction-of-mh17-flight-in-ukraine/738541/12 "2023-02-08T19:44:16Z")
> **[MH17: Putin probably supplied missile that downed plane - investigators](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64566297)** > > The aircraft was hit by a Russian-made missile in eastern Ukraine in 2014, killing 298 people. > **['Strong indications' Putin decided to give separatists the missile that...](https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/08/europe/mh17-russia-ukraine-supply-missile-intl/index.html)** > > There are "strong indications" that Russian President Vladimir Putin personally approved the decision to provide separatists in Ukraine with the missile that shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in 2014, Dutch investigators said Wednesday. > **[Investigators say Putin likely approved the supply of the missile system that...](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/world/europe/putin-flight-mh17-missile.html)** > > A Dutch-led team made the assessment, but said it had suspended its investigation because of insufficient evidence and rules that prevent new prosecutions.