# What are the guidelines for naming numbers like 2nd,3rd,4th,5th?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 30, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989 "2010-08-30T11:40:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/1 "2010-08-30T11:40:37Z")
What are the guidelines for naming numbers like 2nd,3rd,4th,5th?
Particularly in dates?
2nd August 2010 3rd August 2010
The single digits are easy. I usually go with whatever sounds right with double digits.
Are there any hard guidelines to follow? I looked in an old English book from college and didn’t find anything.
22nd August, 24th August
some don’t follow the single digit rule.
3rd August, 13th August, 23rd August
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### Author:  [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/2 "2010-08-30T11:59:12Z")
In English, I think they all follow the single digit rule except for the ‘teens’.
Cue 100 posts from people who come from somewhere where they speak English and this isn’t the case. 😃
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### Author:  [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/3 "2010-08-30T12:14:24Z")
It depends on how the ordinal number (first, second, third, fourth) ends when written or spoken in full. If the corresponding cardinal number (one, two, three, four):
(1) Ends in “one”, then “-st” from “first”;
(2) Ends in “two”, then “-nd” from “second”;
(3) Ends in “three”, then “-rd” from “third”; and
(4) Ends in anything else, then “-th”.
The breaking pattern is caused by “eleven”, “twelve” and “thirteen”, for which the ordinal number ends in “-th”, i.e., 11th, 12th, 13th, 111th, 1012th, 9913th, etc.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/4 "2010-08-30T12:20:48Z")
Thanks.
This was one of those things I learned so long ago that I didn’t recall the rules. Thankfully my ear still remembered. 😉 Usually if it sounds right spoken aloud, then it’s correct.
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/5 "2010-08-30T13:51:56Z")
For mathematicians, there is a question of what to call the ordinals corresponding to n+1, n+2, n+3, n+4, … My colleague whose native language was German (but he has been in England or Canada since he was 16 in 1939) writes and presumably says “n+1th, …,” (thus giving a possible rhyme for “month”), but to my native ear it has to be “n+1st, n+2nd, n+3rd, n+4th,…”.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/6 "2010-08-30T14:06:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> What are the guidelines for naming numbers like 2nd,3rd,4th,5th?
> Particularly in dates?
Yeah - don’t do it. 9 times out of 10, you don’t need to add the ordinal suffix for dates.
Correct: July 4, 2011
Correct: 4th of July
Incorrect: July 4th, 2011
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/7 "2010-08-30T15:12:37Z")
I see dates in the form of 20th August on a lot Euro sites. It’s known as Little endian form.
Originally it was written “The 20th of August”. Today it’s shortened by removing “The” and “of”.
> **[Calendar date](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_date#Little_endian_forms.2C_starting_with_the_day)**
>
> A calendar date is a reference to a particular day represented within a calendar system. The calendar date allows the specific day to be identified. The number of days between two dates may be calculated. For example, "25 August 2023" is ten days after "15 August 2023". The date of a particular event depends on the observed time zone. For example, the air attack on Pearl Harbor that began at 7:48 a.m. Hawaiian time on 7 December 1941 took place at 3:18 a.m. Japan Standard Time, 8 December in Japa...
You make a good point. July 18th, 2010 is incorrect. That format is the Middle endian form, and it doesn’t use the ordinal suffix.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/8 "2010-08-30T15:47:25Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> > [@aceplace57](#):
> >
> > What are the guidelines for naming numbers like 2nd,3rd,4th,5th?
> > Particularly in dates?
>
> Yeah - don’t do it. 9 times out of 10, you don’t need to add the ordinal suffix for dates.
>
> Correct: July 4, 2011
> Correct: 4th of July
> Incorrect: July 4th, 2011
There’s nothing incorrect about that last one.
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### Author:  [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/9 "2010-08-30T15:54:54Z")
Given the number of supposedly ‘correct’ formats it seems pretty silly to say that anything is incorrect. If it looks sensible to the person writing it, fine.
Posted this Monday the 30th of August in the year of our Lord 2010.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/10 "2010-08-30T16:09:15Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> > [@Munch](#):
> >
> > Yeah - don’t do it. 9 times out of 10, you don’t need to add the ordinal suffix for dates.
> >
> > Correct: July 4, 2011
> > Correct: 4th of July
> > Incorrect: July 4th, 2011
>
> There’s nothing incorrect about that last one.
It’s incorrect so far as it being totally unnecessary.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/11 "2010-08-30T16:15:31Z")
It’s no more unnecessary than the second example – why write “4th of July, 2011” when you could easily write “4 July 2011”? These are all essentially abbreviations of “The fourth day of the month of July in the year 2011.” Where you exactly draw the line is arbitrary. “July fourth, 2011,” is common in speech, so “July 4th, 2011,” is a perfectly valid way of writing it, assuming you’re not subject to a style guide that requires a specific format.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/12 "2010-08-30T16:38:22Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> It’s no more unnecessary than the second example – why write “4th of July, 2011” when you could easily write “4 July 2011”?
You wouldn’t - which is why I didn’t say “4th of July, 2011”, I wrote “4th of July”, period.
> [@](#):
>
> assuming you’re not subject to a style guide that requires a specific format.
And this is exactly why you shouldn’t use ordinal notation when writing this way - many people ARE subject to style guides, and it’s bad practice to use completely unnecessary variations that sometimes violate specific guides. There isn’t a guide out there that would recommend writing “July 4th, 2011”.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/13 "2010-08-30T17:01:40Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> And this is exactly why you shouldn’t use ordinal notation when writing this way - many people ARE subject to style guides, and it’s bad practice to use completely unnecessary variations that sometimes violate specific guides. There isn’t a guide out there that would recommend writing “July 4th, 2011”.
This is incoherent. If you’re not subject to a style guide, then what style guides say about style are not relevant to your writing. If you are subject to a style guide, only what that one style guide says is relevant. It doesn’t matter what the other ones say.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/14 "2010-08-30T17:03:19Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> You wouldn’t - which is why I didn’t say “4th of July, 2011”, I wrote “4th of July”, period.
Why write “4th of July” when you could write “4 July”?
None of these formats are incorrect.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/15 "2010-08-30T17:40:52Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> This is incoherent.
:rolleyes:
> [@](#):
>
> If you’re not subject to a style guide, then what style guides say about style are not relevant to your writing. If you are subject to a style guide, only what that one style guide says is relevant. It doesn’t matter what the other ones say.
If a style guide is going to say anything on the matter, they’re going to say “don’t use ordinal notation”. My post simply states, “why get in the bad habit of doing something if there are guides that tell you not to do it?”
> [@](#):
>
> Why write “4th of July” when you could write “4 July”?
You can’t think of any reasons why “4th of July” would ever come up in written communication? Okay…
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/16 "2010-08-30T17:44:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> None of these formats are incorrect.
You’ve already stated that, and I’ve already addressed that.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/17 "2010-08-30T17:56:27Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> > [@acsenray](#):
> >
> > This is incoherent.
>
> :rolleyes:
Right back atcha, champ.
> [@](#):
>
> If a style guide is going to say anything on the matter, they’re going to say “don’t use ordinal notation”.
I regularly refer to at least three style guides, and none of them use that wording. Can I ask which one you’re quoting there?
> [@](#):
>
> My post simply states, “why get in the bad habit of doing something if there are guides that tell you not to do it?”
Your “bad habit” line is conclusory. There’s nothing “bad” about it.
Style guides are (largely arbitrary) indications of style preferences for publications and organizations that require consistency in style. If you are not writing for someone that requires adherence to a specific style, then what they say doesn’t matter to you. Style guide rules are meant for people using those style guides. They say nothing about correctness outside that context.
> [@](#):
>
> Why write “4th of July” when you could write “4 July”?
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > You can’t think of any reasons why “4th of July” would ever come up in written communication? Okay…
Oh, this is rich. Can you not think of any reasons why “July 4th” would ever come up in written communication? Hint: People speaking English often say the phrase “July fourth” and one of the ways of recording such phrase in writing is “July 4th”; another way is “July 4.” Exactly the same situation as “4th of July”; “4 July” and “4th of July” are two of several ways of writing the same thing. Funny how that works.
And how would this square with your statement that “If a style guide is going to say anything on the matter, they’re going to say ‘don’t use ordinal notation’.”?
You’re the one who labeled “July 4th” as incorrect and “July 4” as correct. They mean the same thing, and they’re generally pronounced exactly the same as well. Under your rubric, then, “4 July” would be correct because “4th July” includes an unnecessary ordinal.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/18 "2010-08-30T18:07:14Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> You’re the one who labeled “July 4th” as incorrect and “July 4” as correct.
If you’re going to keep repeating this, why would I address anything else you have to say?
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/19 "2010-08-30T18:11:53Z")
If that means you propose to stop making inaccurate statements about what constitutes correct English usage, I’m satisfied with that.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-guidelines-for-naming-numbers-like-2nd-3rd-4th-5th/551989/20 "2010-08-30T18:14:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#):
>
> If that means you propose to stop making inaccurate statements about what constitutes correct English usage, I’m satisfied with that.
:rolleyes:
I amended my “incorrect” statement to this in post #10:
> [@](#):
>
> It’s incorrect so far as it being totally unnecessary.
If you think that is unreasonable, please explain why.
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