# What are the logistics involved in delivering F16s to Egypt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 26, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624 "2013-07-26T20:41:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/21 "2013-07-28T18:45:22Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You might want to explain that to the Iranians. They’re still flying [F-14s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14_Tomcat#Iran), [F-5s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-5_Freedom_Fighter#Iran) and [AH-1 SuperCobras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1_SuperCobra#Iran) 34 years after we cut off thier source of spare parts. They’re flying F-14s by cannibalizing bits of their fleet for parts for other aircraft, and manufacturing simple components themselves. It’s not a sustainable approach, and the only reason they’ve been able to do it for 30 years is because they’ve flown only a handful of combat missions since the Iran-Iraq War (when the aircraft were new.) The F-5s are a different story; they were well behind the leading edge of fighter technology when they were delivered, and they were sold to everyone, so spare parts are easy to find. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/22 "2013-07-28T20:20:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They’re flying F-14s by cannibalizing bits of their fleet for parts for other aircraft, and manufacturing simple components themselves. It’s not a sustainable approach, and the only reason they’ve been able to do it for 30 years is because they’ve flown only a handful of combat missions since the Iran-Iraq War (when the aircraft were new.) Did you seriously call it an unsustainable approach and then admit they’ve been doing it for 30 years? The aircraft were hardly all new at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war, with initial deliveries having begun in 1976, and the war lasted 8 years. That they were able to keep a sizable percentage flying for all 8 years of war with no proper source of spares tends to sink the idea that the US can control the fly ability of aircraft it exports by controlling the source of spares. They’ve obviously not flown many _combat_ missions since the Iran-Iraq war; they haven’t been at war since. They have been flying plenty of non-combat missions since the end of the war, and in terms of sustainability the number of operational aircraft has in fact increased from 20 to 25 in recent years, hardly a sign that reverse engineering is an unsustainable approach. Again, the F-14 has only ever had two operators, the US has gone to extremes trying to keep spares out of the hands of Iran, yet Iran has kept them flying for 34 years after being cut off from US spare parts, fought an 8 year long war with them during which they scored 160 aerial kills and shows no sign of intending to retire or replace them in service. And yet you call that an unsustainable approach with a straight face?😕 Again, compared to the F-14 the F-16 would be a piece of cake to keep operational without a ‘proper’ source of spare parts; it is one of the most widely used combat aircraft in the world today. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/23 "2013-07-29T04:30:38Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Again, compared to the F-14 the F-16 would be a piece of cake to keep operational without a ‘proper’ source of spare parts; it is one of the most widely used combat aircraft in the world today. Sounds like a great reason to get a few F-16s. So, since there are many operators, could the Egyptians find training and other support from sources other than the United States if relations were to sour? Has the US ever faced F-16s in combat? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/24 "2013-07-29T14:04:48Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Again, compared to the F-14 the F-16 would be a piece of cake to keep operational without a ‘proper’ source of spare parts; it is one of the most widely used combat aircraft in the world today. Yes, that’s true. I was commenting only on the F-14 as prologue. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/25 "2013-07-29T15:29:24Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Did you seriously call it an unsustainable approach and then admit they’ve been doing it for 30 years? The aircraft were hardly all new at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war, with initial deliveries having begun in 1976, and the war lasted 8 years. That they were able to keep a sizable percentage flying for all 8 years of war with no proper source of spares tends to sink the idea that the US can control the fly ability of aircraft it exports by controlling the source of spares. > > They’ve obviously not flown many _combat_ missions since the Iran-Iraq war; they haven’t been at war since. They have been flying plenty of non-combat missions since the end of the war, and in terms of sustainability the number of operational aircraft has in fact increased from 20 to 25 in recent years, hardly a sign that reverse engineering is an unsustainable approach. Again, the F-14 has only ever had two operators, the US has gone to extremes trying to keep spares out of the hands of Iran, yet Iran has kept them flying for 34 years after being cut off from US spare parts, fought an 8 year long war with them during which they scored 160 aerial kills and shows no sign of intending to retire or replace them in service. And yet you call that an unsustainable approach with a straight face?😕 > > Again, compared to the F-14 the F-16 would be a piece of cake to keep operational without a ‘proper’ source of spare parts; it is one of the most widely used combat aircraft in the world today. What is the source of the operational statistics of the Iranian F-14s? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/26 "2013-07-29T16:42:01Z")
BTW, Obama just [approved the sale](http://rt.com/usa/obama-fighter-jets-egypt-856/), with some fancy footwork around Congress on when a “coup” isn’t a coup. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/27 "2013-07-29T17:39:06Z")
There’s no way the U.S. government is going to cut its defense industry subsidies. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/28 "2013-07-29T18:28:39Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > … > > Maybe some refueling tankers, but I would be really surprised if the U.S. Air Force (or any other branch of the U.S. military) “leases” warplanes (fighters, bombers, attack planes and attack helicopters, and so forth). Do you have some information that shows otherwise? We have and still do lease complete systems to allies/other nations. One example I worked on was returning HAWk missile systems (missiles, launcher, radars, command modules, and support equipment) from Norway after the lease period was up. I bleieve it was for 20 years initially then extended. Some PATRIOT systems are leased to countries. It’s more expensive for them initially but usually included is software/hardware updates in the lease. To the country, it’s insures an up-to-date system throughout the lease rather than buying a couple of billion dollars of something that becomes a door stop with some new radar/stealth breakthrough. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/29 "2013-07-29T18:39:22Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > MODERATOR NOTE– > > **bob++**. Try not to use disparaging terms such as 'towel headed Muslims" on the SDMB. > > **samclem** , moderator Sorry about that - I was not disparaging the muslims, but cack handedly trying to indicate how the US and other governments see them. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/30 "2013-07-29T18:55:54Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Sounds like a great reason to get a few F-16s. So, since there are many operators, could the Egyptians find training and other support from sources other than the United States if relations were to sour? Has the US ever faced F-16s in combat? No it has not. As it is, the Egyptians spare parts bit is misconceived, the Egyptians have a relatively advanced Aerospace Industry and IIRC they do make several spares themselves. They also can get access to spares through the Turks, who had/have an F16 production line of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Ayebaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darth_ayebaw/32/9870_2.png) [@Darth\_Ayebaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Ayebaw)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/31 "2013-07-29T21:25:00Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > BTW, Obama just [approved the sale](http://rt.com/usa/obama-fighter-jets-egypt-856/), with some fancy footwork around Congress on when a “coup” isn’t a coup. Since you must’ve missed it, that’s an article from 2012, before the military coup against Morsi. AFAIK the most recent news as of five days ago is that[Obama announced he would be delaying the transfer of F-16s](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23442947) until a through review of whether or not a coup is a coup is completed. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/32 "2013-07-30T01:16:42Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > What is the source of the operational statistics of the Iranian F-14s? There’s an article [here](http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/persiancats.html) from Smithsonian Air & Space magazine entitled _Persian Cats:How Iranian air crews, cut off from U.S. technical support, used the F-14 against Iraqi attackers_, the author of the article also wrote [Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat](http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_452.shtml). Notable bits: > [@](#): > > Iran at first attempted to keep some 60 Tomcats in operational condition, but intensive flying and lack of qualified maintenance personnel—not the lack of spare parts, as is commonly believed—forced it to scale back the number of operational F-14s to 40 by 1984, and to 25 by 1986. > … > On average, about 40 percent of the F-14 fleet was combat-ready at any one time. “We knew without a doubt that this…F-14A fighter force would not give Iran total air superiority over Iraq,” says Hashemi. He says the strategy was to use the prized F-14s sparingly to keep them safe from Iraqi surface-to-air missiles but to have them ready for any strike force that invaded Iranian airspace. It’s a bit odd to think about, but the F-14 has been in service with Iran longer than it was in service with the US Navy. Iran also claims to have made the only confirmed kills with AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. Only two were fired in anger by US Navy F-14s and neither resulted in a confirmed kill. I found [this](http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/07/local/me-jets7) kind of amusing: 4 F-14s seized at Southland airports > [@](#): > > Three of the fighter jets then were sold, in “unauthorized deals,” to an Oxnard scrap company for $4,000 or less apiece, and one was acquired as a prop for the military drama “JAG,” according to the affidavit and federal officials. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/33 "2013-07-30T01:21:03Z")
> [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > Since you must’ve missed it, that’s an article from 2012, before the military coup against Morsi. AFAIK the most recent news as of five days ago is that[Obama announced he would be delaying the transfer of F-16s](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23442947) until a through review of whether or not a coup is a coup is completed. :smack: That’s the second time I’ve done this. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/34 "2013-07-30T04:06:36Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > There’s an article [here](http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/persiancats.html) from Smithsonian Air & Space magazine entitled _Persian Cats:How Iranian air crews, cut off from U.S. technical support, used the F-14 against Iraqi attackers_, the author of the article also wrote [Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat](http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_452.shtml). Notable bits:It’s a bit odd to think about, but the F-14 has been in service with Iran longer than it was in service with the US Navy. Iran also claims to have made the only confirmed kills with AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. Only two were fired in anger by US Navy F-14s and neither resulted in a confirmed kill. I found [this](http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/07/local/me-jets7) kind of amusing: 4 F-14s seized at Southland airports That is hardly a verifiable cite about their reliability now or even then. Your cite ends with: > [@](#): > > Today, there are still an unverifiable number of Tomcats, overhauled and upgraded with indigenously developed systems, in the Iranian air force And also: > [@](#): > > Information about the Iran-Iraq air war is difficult to come by. It is impossible to tabulate, for example, how many air-to-air victories were scored by Iranian F-14s because air force records were repeatedly tampered with during and after the war for political, religious, or even personal reasons. Even today, most Iranian pilots will speak about their experiences only on the condition of anonymity. Several pilots quoted here insisted on pseudonyms for their protection. So I don’t think I would trust any of the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/35 "2013-07-30T08:25:59Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > That is hardly a verifiable cite about their reliability now or even then. Your cite ends with: It’s as reliable as it’s going to get. DoD estimates [were](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14_Tomcat_operational_history#Iranian_service) > [@](#): > > The United States estimated that the IRIAF was able to keep between 15 and 20 F-14s operational by cannibalizing parts from other F-14s. The IRIAF claims a higher figure, and was able to assemble 25 aircraft for an 11 February 1985 fly-over of Tehran. Despite the embargo,[further explanation needed] Iran was able to acquire parts for its American aircraft, including the F-14, F-4, and F-5. Sources[who?] indicate these came from the Iran-Contra arms deal, collusion with Israel, or domestic production. Iran has claimed that they have been able to produce all of the parts required, though US intelligence indicates that total is about 70 percent. Note the 25 F-14s assembled for a fly-over of Tehran in 1985 is the same number the Air & Space article says Iran kept operational in 1986. 25 is also the same as the 40% operational rate of the some 60 F-14 airframes they initially tried to keep in operational condition during the war (it works out to 40% of 62.5 airframes). > [@](#): > > And also: > > > [@](#): > > > > Information about the Iran-Iraq air war is difficult to come by. It is impossible to tabulate, for example, how many air-to-air victories were scored by Iranian F-14s because air force records were repeatedly tampered with during and after the war for political, religious, or even personal reasons. Even today, most Iranian pilots will speak about their experiences only on the condition of anonymity. Several pilots quoted here insisted on pseudonyms for their protection. > > So I don’t think I would trust any of the numbers. This is hardly anything new or unique to Iran. During the Battle of Britain overall the RAF over claimed losses it inflicted on the Luftwaffe by 155% while the Luftwaffe over claimed the number of RAF fighters it shot down by 334%. On specific days the RAF over claims were as great as the Luftwaffe’s; the RAF claimed to have shot down 185 German aircraft on September 15, 1940 while German records only show they suffered 60 losses. If I may quote J.F.C. Fuller in the introduction to the first edition of _The Second World War_ > [@](#): > > One point remains which I should like to say a word on - namely, the question of numbers and casualties. As regards to the former, the normal process is for all parties to minimize their own strengths and exaggerate their enemy’s because this makes successes appear more brilliant and failures less culpable. Therefore, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of any strengths given in this book. As regards casualties, nearly all official figures are suspect. War may be a science or an art, but its reporting is mainly a dodge. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/36 "2013-07-30T14:44:27Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s as reliable as it’s going to get. … > This is hardly anything new or unique to Iran. During the Battle of Britain … If I may quote J.F.C. Fuller in the introduction to the first edition of _The Second World War_ > [@](#): > > One point remains which I should like to say a word on - namely, the question of numbers and casualties. As regards to the former, the normal process is for all parties to minimize their own strengths and exaggerate their enemy’s because this makes successes appear more brilliant and failures less culpable. _Therefore, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of any strengths given in this book_. As regards casualties, nearly all official figures are suspect. War may be a science or an art, but _its reporting is mainly a dodge_. Italics added. I’d just like to interject at this point that this quoted graf, particularly the italicized sentences, is one of the most comical I’ve ever seen in a work claiming to be historical. Reportin’ and finding out stuff about stuff sure makes your puzzler hurt. It’s just plain to darn hard to fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/37 "2013-07-30T14:50:44Z")
training of the Iranian pilots in USA [http://www.iiaf.net/aircraft/jetfighters/F14/f14.html](http://www.iiaf.net/aircraft/jetfighters/F14/f14.html) US Navy pilots ferrying F14’s to Iran. [http://flitetime.net/iran.html](http://flitetime.net/iran.html) the logic is that the small country won’t need skils and equipment to ferry them huge distances, so the USA’s pilots do the ferry trip. Maybe the F16’s would land in Germany for refueling, and maybe not. They don’t like to ship the planes… too much risk of damage ? Neither the F16 nor the carriers are setup for F16’s on carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/38 "2013-07-30T15:02:36Z")
If you’re shipping the planes you wouldn’t put them on a carrier. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/39 "2013-07-30T18:02:08Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s as reliable as it’s going to get. DoD estimates [were](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14_Tomcat_operational_history#Iranian_service)Note the 25 F-14s assembled for a fly-over of Tehran in 1985 is the same number the Air & Space article says Iran kept operational in 1986. 25 is also the same as the 40% operational rate of the some 60 F-14 airframes they initially tried to keep in operational condition during the war (it works out to 40% of 62.5 airframes). > > This is hardly anything new or unique to Iran. During the Battle of Britain overall the RAF over claimed losses it inflicted on the Luftwaffe by 155% while the Luftwaffe over claimed the number of RAF fighters it shot down by 334%. On specific days the RAF over claims were as great as the Luftwaffe’s; the RAF claimed to have shot down 185 German aircraft on September 15, 1940 while German records only show they suffered 60 losses. If I may quote J.F.C. Fuller in the introduction to the first edition of _The Second World War_ Point taken about the use of propaganda. Maybe it’s just my cultural bias to believe that any information coming out of a totalitarian regime is more suspect than most. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624/40 "2013-07-30T18:32:30Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > Cite? What would the U.S. gain in giving weapons away? You don’t think the U.S. actually **sold** small arms, mortars and surface to air missles to the mujahideen during the Afghan Russian conflict? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-logistics-involved-in-delivering-f16s-to-egypt/664624.md?page=3)