# What are the macroscopic effects of very high energy subatomic collisions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 8, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626 "2008-09-08T16:06:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/1 "2008-09-08T16:06:35Z")
In [this article](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24525554/) on the impending startup of the Large Hardon Collider, the author tries to explain the energies the LHC is capable of: [QUOTE=Alan Boyle] those protons will be whipped up to 99.999999 percent of the speed of light, slamming together with the energy of two bullet trains colliding head-on [/QUOTE] Assuming that’s a proper characterization of the magnitude of energy we’re talking about…what would that be like? If I were sitting at my desk, and a pair of protons collided in front of me at that speed, releasing that much energy, what would it be like macroscopically? Would I see a bright flash of light? Would I be knocked over/killed/vaporized by a massive shock wave that appears to come from nowhere? Or would there be no tangible effects outside the quantum scale? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/2 "2008-09-08T16:21:35Z")
Those numbers are so far off, it’s not even funny. This is why I hate popular media explanations of science. The LHC is expected to have collision energies on the order of 14 TeV, which is about 2.24 x 10[sup]-6[/sup] joules. You can look at [this scale](http://www.vendian.org/envelope/TemporaryURL/energy.html) to get a sense of what kind of energy that is. It’s nowhere NEAR macroscopic, falling many orders of magnitude below the amount of energy needed to light a 40-watt light bulb for an hour. By comparison, the most energetic cosmic ray ever detected carried an energy equivalent to a major-league fast ball; this, too is many orders of magnitude more energy than the LHC is capable of. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/3 "2008-09-08T16:28:34Z")
This seems to be the same question as [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=473005&highlight=large+hadron+collider), so the answer is that it’s too small to see unless it hit your actual eye. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/4 "2008-09-08T17:05:31Z")
Hmm…I didn’t realize how far off that explanation was. I suppose I could have done the math, but where’s the fun in that? Knowing what how big a joule is, I understand the energy levels we’re talking about. Miniscule indeed. Bummer…I hoping for some fireworks. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/5 "2008-09-08T17:06:35Z")
I guess that black hole that will eat the Earth and the universe would be macroscopic. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/6 "2008-09-08T17:12:28Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > about 2.24 x 10[sup]-6[/sup] joules. ## That’s 5.4 X 10^-10 Calories, or the equivalent of the dietary energy in 1.2 X 10^-10 Oreo cookies\*. \*By weight. An Oreo cookie weighs 12 grams and delivers 55 Calories of chocolatey goodness. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/7 "2008-09-08T17:15:17Z")
I thought we were supposed to assume that the collision energy _was_ that large… ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/8 "2008-09-08T17:28:55Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > That’s 5.4 X 10^-10 Calories, or the equivalent of the dietary energy in 1.2 X 10^-10 Oreo cookies\*. Man, I’m still hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/9 "2008-09-08T17:31:40Z")
Looking at the energy **density** A proton has a volume of [1.4×10-44 m³](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(volume)) So two colliding protons will have a volume of 2.8×10-44 m³. An Oreo cookie has a volume of about 1.4 × 10^-5 cubic meters. That’s 5.0 × 10^38 times the volume of the colliding protons. So an Oreo cookie with the same energy density as the colliding protons would contain 1.12 × 10^33 joules, or **2.7 × 10^29 Calories.** Eating one of those would make a person _very_ fat. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/10 "2008-09-08T17:34:58Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Eating one of those would make a person _very_ fat. Great, now compare it to the Twinkie™ in _Ghostbusters_. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/11 "2008-09-08T17:38:32Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So an Oreo cookie with the same energy density as the colliding protons would contain 1.12 × 10^33 joules, or **2.7 × 10^29 Calories.** But the real question is… how big would it be? 🙂 Edit after rereading the quoted post: same size. But then… how heavy would it be? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/12 "2008-09-08T17:56:57Z")
The “colliding bullet trains” might be a misguided figure for the amount of energy the machine _uses_, rather than the amount that actually goes into the high-speed protons. Particle accelerators are horrendously inefficient. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/13 "2008-09-08T18:28:50Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > how heavy would it be? It’d mass 1.7 X 10^14 grams. With a volume of 14 cubic centimeters, that’s definite black hole territory. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/14 "2008-09-08T18:35:20Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > This is why I hate popular media explanations of science. [Nervewracking](http://partiallyclips.com/index.php?id=1569), isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Tierce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@Tierce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tierce)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/15 "2008-09-08T19:32:30Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > You can look at [this scale](http://www.vendian.org/envelope/TemporaryURL/energy.html) to get a sense of what kind of energy that is. That’s an interesting list. I wonder about its accuracy, though. Shouldn’t “ton TNT” and “megaton TNT” be six orders of magnitude apart, not three? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/16 "2008-09-08T19:34:14Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > It’d mass 1.7 X 10^14 grams. With a volume of 14 cubic centimeters, that’s definite black hole territory. So that’d be the _dark_ chocolate coating. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/17 "2008-09-08T19:46:10Z")
The energy stored in the LHC proton beam could melt 500kg of copper. [Cite](http://physicsandphysicists.blogspot.com/2008/03/under-control-keeping-lhc-beams-on.html) I did read a better article on the beam dumps which I cannot now find (\*eta \*[here](http://spectrum.ieee.org/print/6558)) - they use multistage magnetic decelleration to dump energy from the protons until they can hit a cooled graphite sink with a swinging beam. Si ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/18 "2008-09-08T20:31:23Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > 10^-10 Calories Is that what’s called an Angst? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![UTejas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UTejas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UTejas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/19 "2008-09-08T20:42:21Z")
[This dude](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski) might have some insights. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626/20 "2008-09-08T21:16:19Z")
> [@UTejas](#): > > [This dude](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski) might have some insights. Wasn’t he the one they claimed was a copy of Dr. Manhattan, only red? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-macroscopic-effects-of-very-high-energy-subatomic-collisions/462626.md?page=2)