# What are the main contradictions in the bible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763 "2001-07-17T04:11:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2001, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/81 "2001-07-26T19:55:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kaje \* > **Occam’s razor is a useful tool for making decisions, but not an unbreakable scientific law. There are situations in which the answer involves more “forces” than are necessary.** Name one. You made the claim, you back it up. > [@](#): > > **I have argued from the perspective of a “hard atheist”, from that of a denominational believer, from that of a skeptical believer, from that of an agnostic, as well as others.** Maybe you ought to stick to just one argument from now on. All you’ve done is to confuse people. We don’t know what you believe because you keep changing your arguments. It’s called “moving the target.” Whenever it appears that someone is getting close to the bulls-eye, you move it back or to the side without warning. It’s unfair; it’s cheating, unless you acknowledge that the original target has been hit. You can say, “Okay, that’s a good argument against agnosticism, but what about deism?” Are you willing to admit when or if you have lost? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2001, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/82 "2001-07-26T22:01:28Z")
jab1 wrote: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Kaje \* > > **Occam’s razor is a useful tool for making decisions, but not an unbreakable scientific law. There are situations in which the answer involves more “forces” than are necessary.** > > Name one. Non-relativistic (Newtonian) mechanics. The general formula for determining the motion of an object, when subjected to a force, requires hideously complex Lorentz transformations and these weird tensor matrix thingies that come out of general relativity. But for an object moving at less than around 5% of the speed of light, you’ll get the right answer if you simply apply F=ma. The fact that you can get the right answer for slow objects without using Relativity does not mean that Relativity isn’t operating at low speeds. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/83 "2001-07-26T22:20:08Z")
Don’t you have to use relativity to accurately predict the motion of Mercury, even though it moves at far, far less than 5% of the speed of light? (Newton failed at it and attributed it to observational errors. It turned out he hadn’t taken relativity into account because he didn’t know about it.) Or am I thinking of something else? ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/84 "2001-07-27T16:48:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*jab1 wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by Kaje \* > > > **Occam’s razor is a useful tool for making decisions, but not an unbreakable scientific law. There are situations in which the answer involves more “forces” than are necessary.** > > > > Name one. > > Non-relativistic (Newtonian) mechanics. > > The general formula for determining the motion of an object, when subjected to a force, requires hideously complex Lorentz transformations and these weird tensor matrix thingies that come out of general relativity. But for an object moving at less than around 5% of the speed of light, you’ll get the right answer if you simply apply F=ma. The fact that you can get the right answer for slow objects without using Relativity does not mean that Relativity isn’t operating at low speeds. \*\* Er, you don’t get the \*right[/i answer using Newtonian mechanics. Ever. What you get when speeds significantly less than “c” are involved is an _acceptably close_ answer. Occam’s razor doesn’t apply to the decision whether to use Newtonian or relativistic formulas; only the required precision is a factor. ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/85 "2001-07-27T17:03:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > **Don’t you have to use relativity to accurately predict the motion of Mercury, even though it moves at far, far less than 5% of the speed of light?** You need to account for relativistic effects to accurately calculate the _precession_ of Mercury’s orbit; that is, the rotation of the major axis of the orbit. Newtonian mechanics predict a precession but the prediction is less than is observed. One of the early triumphs of general relativity (not special relativity) was the prediction of the correct precession. This is (last I heard) still not a done deal, because the Newtonian prediction depends on the exact shape of the Sun, and there is disagreement about the exact shape of the Sun. See [Precession of the perihelion of Mercury](http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node98.html), [Mercury’s Orbital Precession, General Relativity, and the Solar Bulge](http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/mercury_orbit.html), and [Anomalous Precessions](http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-02/6-02.htm). This is not really a velocity effect, but is rather an effect of extreme warping of space-time by mass. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/86 "2001-07-27T17:13:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*Don’t you have to use relativity to accurately predict the motion of Mercury, even though it moves at far, far less than 5% of the speed of light? (Newton failed at it and attributed it to observational errors. It turned out he hadn’t taken relativity into account because he didn’t know about it.) > > Or am I thinking of something else? \*\* No, you got it right. The perihelion of Mercury’s orbit precesses at a different rate than what Newtonian physics predicts. Initially this was explained by observational error. When instrumentation improved, the discrepancy was explained by a unseen planet inside Mercury’s orbit. It took General Relativity’s description of gravity to conclusively explain it. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/87 "2001-07-27T17:58:42Z")
I knew Relativity has _sumthin’_ to do with it. Thanks for clearing that up. And as for Biblical contradictions, if God really knows everything, doesn’t that mean He knows the future? Wouldn’t that mean He knew Adam & Eve would eat the Forbidden Fruit even before He put the tree in the Garden? Wouldn’t that mean A&E were punished for something God knew they would do? Doesn’t that destroy the whole concept of Original Sin and sin in general? (I know these questions have been asked and answered before. I’m hoping for different answers this time.) ---
**Author:** ![Kaje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kaje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaje)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/88 "2001-07-27T18:57:45Z")
actualy as far as the anti-Occam’s razor thing goes, I was thinking of something a bit more mundane. Like when someone is framed. Occam’s razor says the best solution is the one that does not require an unknown party, so this person will be guilty in the eyes of Occam’s razor, but in reality innocent. The same goes for assasinations. When someone is assasinanted the simplest solution would be that the one person who fired the gun is the only one involved. However, investigation and experience will show that the far more likely solution is that there is someone else behind it. ---
**Author:** ![bobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f9ae1b/32.png) [@bobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/89 "2001-07-27T19:32:01Z")
But god has a list, of 10 things that you can’t do, and if you do any of the things on the list he’ll put you in a pit of suffering and burning and torture forever… but he loves you ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/90 "2001-07-27T21:38:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kaje \* > \*\*When someone is assasinanted the simplest solution would be that the one person who fired the gun is the only one involved. However, investigation and experience will show that the far more likely solution is that there is someone else behind it. \*\* I’m sorry, but you do not understand Occam’s Razor. It says that you should use the simplest solution **that takes into account all known information.** If new information reveals that there was more than one person involved in an assassination, then the simplest solution will account for ALL the people involved. **This does not violate Occam’s Razor.** It’s when people come up with solutions that require additions that are not indicated by the data that they are doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mambo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/91 "2001-07-27T23:17:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*I knew Relativity has _sumthin’_ to do with it. Thanks for clearing that up. > > And as for Biblical contradictions, if God really knows everything, doesn’t that mean He knows the future? Wouldn’t that mean He knew Adam & Eve would eat the Forbidden Fruit even before He put the tree in the Garden? Wouldn’t that mean A&E were punished for something God knew they would do? Doesn’t that destroy the whole concept of Original Sin and sin in general? > > (I know these questions have been asked and answered before. I’m hoping for different answers this time.) \*\* How? Adam and Eve’s sin was the _original_ sin. How does God’s foreknowledge of this event nullify it? I believe God knows everything I am going to do before I do it, but I have no idea where I am gonna be in 2 weeks. All I know to do is live my life in the best way. To reverse the question: _why would God reward a man for doing something good since He already knew what the man would do?_ It’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/92 "2001-07-27T23:26:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mambo \* > **How? Adam and Eve’s sin was the _original_ sin. How does God’s foreknowledge of this event nullify it?** If God knew A&E would eat the Fruit no matter what He said, why did He say anything at all? > [@](#): > > **I believe God knows everything I am going to do before I do it** So you don’t believe you have free will? Do you believe God already knows who’s going to Heaven and who isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Kaje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kaje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaje)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2001, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/93 "2001-07-28T14:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > **I believe God knows everything I am going to do before I do it** > > So you don’t believe you have free will? Do you believe God already knows who’s going to Heaven and who isn’t? \*\* oooo…calvinism… scary… :eek: now about the occam thing. So if someone is framed for murder, and the framer (?) does a good job, such that no evidence or information (other than the framee’s claims that he is innocent) points to the involvement of an extra person, what does Occam’s razor say? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/94 "2001-07-28T19:37:18Z")
The fact that it can be difficult to satisfy Occam’s razor does not prove that the concept is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Kaje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kaje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaje)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2001, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/95 "2001-07-28T20:39:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*The fact that it can be difficult to satisfy Occam’s razor does not prove that the concept is flawed. \*\* I didn’t mean that the entire concept was flawed, but that it is not universally applicable. It is indeed difficult to satisfy, and it is not necessarily satisfied with various attempts to weigh God on the razor. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/96 "2001-07-28T23:54:20Z")
If the concept is not flawed, then it is universally applicable. If the concept is flawed, then it is not universally applicable. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/97 "2001-07-30T21:38:44Z")
Here are my favorites: * * * 2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.” (NIV) versus 1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel The difference in this one is rather subtle * * * 1 Kings 9:23 They were also the chief officials in charge of Solomon’s projects–550 officials supervising the men who did the work. versus 2 Chronicles 8:10 They were also King Solomon’s chief officials–two hundred and fifty officials supervising the men. Numerical differences are the hardest to explain away * * * Genesis 1:25-26 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let us make man in our image…” versus Genesis 2:18-19 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them… This is a good one when faced with creationists: “Okay, first of all, which creation story are you talking about: The one with the man before or after the animals?” * * * Matthew 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations…” versus Matthew 10:5-6 “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.” Matthew 15:26 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” (a few verses later he contemptuously refers to Gentiles as “dogs”) To many fundamentalists I know, Matthew 28:18-20 is one of Jesus’ most important quotes (especially those groups who are focused on evangelism/recruiting). Nowhere did Jesus ever say to go after the gentiles, so the apostles must’ve no doubt been confused by this… at least until Peter’s vision in Acts 10-11. Some feel these verses were an interpolation to jive with the tacked-on Mark 16:14-20 * * * 1 Corinthians 15:5 …and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. This is my favorite. How could Paul “forget” Judas? Of course, this book was written before any of the gospels. I have yet to see a good reason for this “apparent discrepancy”. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/98 "2001-07-30T22:34:12Z")
**Hub** you ought to drop some of those on the people at the Pizza Parlor. I’d love to see them try to explain just who it was who told David to count Israel! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2001, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/99 "2001-07-31T02:19:50Z")
What I wanna know is, why is taking a plain old census of Israel viewed as such an “evil” thing in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles? The people react to the census as though David had just slaughtered their babies at the altar or something. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763/100 "2001-08-01T00:39:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*What I wanna know is, why is taking a plain old census of Israel viewed as such an “evil” thing in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles? The people react to the census as though David had just slaughtered their babies at the altar or something. \*\* How _the people_ react? HA! That’s nothing compared to how our Heavenly Father takes this: 2 Samuel 24:11-15 says: 11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, `This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’” 13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come upon you three[2] years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.” 14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men.” 15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. **70,000 people!** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-main-contradictions-in-the-bible/72763.md?page=6)