# What are the mod rules against sealioning and/or mentioning it? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 4, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042 "2020-06-04T13:49:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/21 "2020-06-05T15:38:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Take ThelmaLou in that thread, for example. I don’t have any beef with her in general, in fact I agree with her more often than not. But in that thread she took exception to my position, and she engaged me by asking questions that demanded some investment on my part, and she dodged those answers by repeatedly posing more low-effort questions. To my reckoning, that’s the basic bar for sealioning, though she probably wasn’t consciously trying to grind me down by wasting my time, as others do. > > Sometimes people do that consciously, with malign intent. I don’t think ThelmaLou was doing that. But regardless of intent, I think we should be able to call the behavior pattern out for what it is. I don’t see any reason you couldn’t describe what she’s doing without calling it sealioning. Because the term directly implies what you are saying is not true–that she is engaging dishonestly. There’s a reason why the comic has them saying they don’t sea lions–it describes a type of person, not an argument. I’ve seen many, many GD threads where someone points out that people are dodging questions. “You didn’t answer my question.” As for “badgering,” I’d have to know exactly what it is before I could comment on whether that term is okay or not. Google says it means to repeatedly asking the same question in order to pester someone. I would say the actual behavior can be pointed out easily and has been in the past. Only after someone has pointed it out and it continued have I seen mods intervene. I know that I’ve repeatedly successfully pointed out behaviors that I think were not conducive to debate without ever being moderated for doing so. (I do have Warnings, but they’re all for other things.) I even directly did so to a mod, pointing out he was trying to argue that “other opinions exist” as if that proved the current one wrong. I told him twice that he needed to actually argue those other opinions. Granted, he never actually did so (only just not returning to the thread). But my point is that I didn’t get in trouble, either.Nor have I for repeatedly having to point out that snark is not a substitute for argument. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/22 "2020-06-05T15:55:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s interesting that you \*do \*have a strong opinion on this, but not on the things you choose to debate here. Start a GD thread on what is valid skepticism, then, rather than peppering a bunch of questions into debates where you do not. Why would I start a thread calling into question something I already have a strong opinion of? In my mind the debate has already been had, not to say that I will never change my mind, but that I have no reason to doubt myself. I think you have it backwards, I’m not up to the task of challenging my own confirmation bias. Exposure to other people with different points of view challenges my biases. For example, I have participated in at least one thread about whether just asking questions is a valid form of debate. I am participating in this thread to claim that it is so, and should be differentiated from trolling. Obviously one can take it too far, and there is no excuse for outright dismissing responses. That being said, I am slowly learning to adapt to written communication. With the spoken word, it is much easier to ask and answer short questions. There is minimal delay and you can cut someone off when you are satisfied, or when you think they misunderstand you, saving everyone some breath. Not so on this forum; when confronted by a question one must make a number of assumptions as to how fully to answer, and if any clarification is needed you must wait for a response. Not to mention the lack of visual cues… ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/23 "2020-06-05T16:09:41Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Why would I start a thread calling into question something I already have a strong opinion of? No, \*advocating \*for your stance. To convince others. Like me, who thinks you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > I think you have it backwards, I’m not up to the task of challenging my own confirmation bias. Well, it’s good to know your limitations… > [@](#): > > Exposure to other people with different points of view challenges my biases. You say this, but I’ve seen zero evidence of that in you posting on this board. > [@](#): > > There is minimal delay and you can cut someone off when you are satisfied, or when you think they misunderstand you That’s just rude, and I would not want to have any more conversations with you if you did it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/24 "2020-06-05T16:35:42Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > 1. Moderators have never moderated sealioning Your premise is false. You yourself quoted Jonathan Chance moderating sealioning. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/25 "2020-06-05T18:07:39Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Your premise is false. You yourself quoted Jonathan Chance moderating sealioning. Read better. JC was not moderating sealioning, he was advising others not to mention it (actually he wrote “sea looming”, which I corrected as a presumed typo, but it now occurs to me that he may not know or care what it actually means). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/26 "2020-06-05T20:11:34Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Read better. JC was not moderating sealioning, he was advising others not to mention it The mods have obviously modded what would be described as “sealioning” before. Were you claiming they never modded it using the word? [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21883462&postcount=85)’s an instance of a warning given for it along with a reminder of a previous notice for it to the same poster. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22084413&postcount=277) is an instance of a note given to a poster calling another a sea lion-parrot hybrid. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/27 "2020-06-05T20:53:32Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > The mods have obviously modded what would be described as “sealioning” before. Were you claiming they never modded it using the word? > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21883462&postcount=85)’s an instance of a warning given for it along with a reminder of a previous notice for it to the same poster. > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22084413&postcount=277) is an instance of a note given to a poster calling another a sea lion-parrot hybrid. It’s my understanding that there’s no moderation policy against sealioning, whether called by that name or not. I now see that Bone did it once (good), but Bone is gone (bad), and it’s not clear to me that current moderators are all on the same page, or exactly what the page is. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/28 "2020-06-05T21:09:13Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It’s my understanding that there’s no moderation policy against sealioning, whether called by that name or not. Read posts 6, 8 and 9 again. > [@](#): > > I now see that Bone did it once (good), but Bone is gone (bad), and it’s not clear to me that current moderators are all on the same page, or exactly what the page is. Of course you see it now; I just linked to it. So it’s been done AT LEAST once. I didn’t spend more than a minute or two searching. I don’t know what kind of clarity you’re looking for. Jonathan Chance gave good enough reason to not accuse others of it. It’s generally associated with accusations that aren’t allowed in GD. I explained to you that on the first page of Google hits it’s frequently defined as a form of trolling. That’s clear enough for me. It’s easy enough to get along on this board without having to accuse another of something by using a word you claim most board members here don’t agree on what the definition is. Why it’s so important for you to use a word with a vague definition is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/29 "2020-06-05T21:28:23Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Of course you see it now; I just linked to it. So it’s been done AT LEAST once. I didn’t spend more than a minute or two searching. Yes, thank you, and also, chill. I am just trying to figure something out, not to have some contentious debate. > [@](#): > > Why it’s so important for you to use a word with a vague definition is beyond me. In that thread I said something to the effect “you’re demanding high-investment answers for me and then dismissing them with repeated low-effort answers, so I’m disengaging from that pattern.” That’s a mouthful. I’d find it more convenient to say “I’m done wasting my time with the sealioning questions”. I don’t think sealioning always merits a reported post. I also think it’s hard to moderate because the mod not only has to gather the context, they also have to infer intent. That’s why I’d prefer to remark on it myself and just move on. Clearly the powers that be have deigned otherwise. But I have my answer and I accept it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/30 "2020-06-05T21:49:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yes, thank you, and also, chill. I am just trying to figure something out, not to have some contentious debate. I’m perfectly chilled. I bolded two words to highlight that it hasn’t necessarily been done only once. I wasn’t yelling. > [@](#): > > In that thread I said something to the effect “you’re demanding high-investment answers for me and then dismissing them with repeated low-effort answers, so I’m disengaging from that pattern.” That’s a mouthful. I’d find it more convenient to say “I’m done wasting my time with the sealioning questions”. Yeah, how did we ever get along before that word was coined? Well, now that you wrote it out, you can always copy and paste. You haven’t addressed why you’d want to use that word which you claimed most members here don’t agree on the definition of. I would bet most members haven’t even heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/31 "2020-06-05T22:00:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’d find it more convenient to say “I’m done wasting my time with the sealioning questions”. I guess you deny that it’s generally defined as a form of trolling? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/32 "2020-06-05T22:05:58Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You haven’t addressed why you’d want to use that word which you claimed most members here don’t agree on the definition of. I would bet most members haven’t even heard of it. I have no idea why you won’t let this drop when I’ve explained my position and stated that I’m satisfied that the thread has been answered. I’m out, but feel free to keep on doing whatever you’re doing without me. Read the above post again if you remain confused. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/33 "2020-06-05T22:25:06Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I have no idea why you won’t let this drop when I’ve explained my position and stated that I’m satisfied that the thread has been answered. > > I’m out, but feel free to keep on doing whatever you’re doing without me. Read the above post again if you remain confused. You were free to let it drop anytime you chose to. WE (not yelling) went back and forth because we both had more to say. You’ve explained that you like the word for it’s ease of use. You haven’t explained why you’d want to use a word on this board that you claimed in your OP most here don’t agree on the definition of. I can’t see how that would be useful or important to you. I’ve brought it up and asked you so many times I’m practically badg… Oops! Well, anyway, I’m not at all demanding a high-investment answer. Understanding why it’s important to use a self-admitted ill-defined word is the crux of this issue. I think my last question is a good one, too. But…if you’re out you’re out. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/34 "2020-06-06T03:21:06Z")
I’m wondering if someone can point to an example of _actual_ sealioning on this board that got moderated as such? I’m curious to see. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/35 "2020-06-06T12:33:47Z")
[Took 2 seconds to find one in a search.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21883462&postcount=85) You must not have tried too hard. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/36 "2020-06-07T05:28:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > For what it’s worth, my inner dialogue when evaluating a position I am generally against consists entirely of questions. I don’t conceive of fully formed arguments, I conceive seemingly random questions like how would it work under these conditions, is it even compatible with X, what is the basis for this statement, etc. > > And then often times I’ll be reading an interesting opinion without even having a position myself. I am want to see if their opinion stands up to my scrutiny - that is, I would only be pushing back and never taking a side. I push the burden of proof on them. > > Sometimes I ask myself whether I’m just lazy, but I tend to think that’s just how I process ideas. I am of the strong opinion, however, that this is a valid form of skepticism. > > ~Max I fully agree with this. Anytime I seem to be Just Asking Questions, it means that I am strongly considering the other point of view and testing it in my own mind to see if it is valid, even if I presently am not fully on board. Law schools do this all of the time with the Socratic method and in the office lawyers will bounce ideas off of each other with testing certain theories or statements or proposed rules to argue in front of the court. Let’s use same sex marriage as an example as it is a dead issue that won’t spark anymore controversy. If someone comes up with a proposed rule that “Any two consenting adults should be allowed to marry each other” then you can test that proposal with questions: What if the two are already married? What if the two are closely related by blood? Why limit it to two? What are some possible unforseen consequences? The answers to these questions, far from being dishonest debating in bad faith, helps reform and study the question. The person may say, no, not brothers and sisters, and reform their statement to “Any two consenting adults, not closely related, should be allowed to marry each other.” Analogies, comparing to similar situations, can be used to show how the analogy is not apt or to rethink the original proposition. IMHO, those things help flesh out the thing that is being proposed and exposes potential issues that can either be thrown aside or harmonized. Accusations of JAQing off and trolling and bigotry just cut off the debate and nobody learns anything and we can just have threads full of people spouting the party line–which my understanding is not what posters here want. So why keep trying to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/37 "2020-06-07T06:00:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Accusations of JAQing off and trolling and bigotry just cut off the debate… As do actual incidents of JAQing off and trolling and bigotry. The difference is that the later is deliberate done to cut off debate. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/38 "2020-06-07T06:19:02Z")
I have honestly never heard of sealioning. Just relieved this has nothing to do with bashing in the heads of baby seals. ---
**Author:** ![tafinucane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@tafinucane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tafinucane)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/39 "2020-06-08T16:26:12Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I have honestly never heard of sealioning. Just relieved this has nothing to do with bashing in the heads of baby seals. Me neither. I don’t think I’ve ever noticed the behavior enough to consider it a pattern. Is it called sea lioning because they sit in groups at night incessantly barking? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042/40 "2020-06-08T17:38:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Origins and history** > The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic _Wondermark_ by David Malki,[10] where a character expresses a dislike of sea lions and a sea lion intrudes to repeatedly ask the character to explain.[11] “Sea lion” was quickly verbed, the term gained popularity as a way to describe online trolling, and it was used to describe some of the behavior of those participating in the Gamergate controversy.[12][13] > > In a 2016 study published in _First Monday_ focusing on users of the controversial Gamergate subreddit /r/KotakuInAction, participants were surveyed about what they believed constituted “harassment”. Participants were quoted claiming that “expressions of sincere disagreement” were considered harassment by opponents of the forum and that the term was used to silence legitimate requests for proof.[14] [Sealioning - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning#:~:text=Sealioning%20)(also%20spelled%20sea%2Dlioning,invitations%20to%20engage%20in%20debate%22. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-mod-rules-against-sealioning-and-or-mentioning-it/855042.md?page=3)