# what are the motives of dragons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 30, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770 "2003-12-30T15:00:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hanayatori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8baadc/32.png) [@Hanayatori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hanayatori)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/41 "2004-01-10T04:33:33Z")
Fafnir was mentioned earlier. If I recall correctly, Fafnir was human when he first acquired his hoard, and then turned into a dragon in order to guard it from his brother Regin. The motives here seem to be greed and distrust. ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/42 "2004-01-10T06:22:25Z")
Ooh! Look! A SHINY! AND ANOTHER ONE! AND ANOTHER ONE! AND ANOTHER ONE! SHINY WEEEEE!!! … Human? You DARE disturb my lair ---- TO STEAL MY SHINIES!!! ::fiery death:: That’s if dragons had the personality of, say, me, though. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/43 "2004-01-10T08:18:19Z")
For C.S Lewis the motivation is obviously greed. In _Voyage of the Dawn Treader_ Eustace turns into a dragon after putting on a bracelet from a dying dragon’s horde and then sleeping on said horde with ‘greedy thoughts’. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/44 "2004-01-10T08:24:06Z")
For C.S Lewis the motivation is obviously greed. In _Voyage of the Dawn Treader_ Eustace turns into a dragon after putting on a bracelet from a dying dragon’s horde and then sleeping on said horde with ‘greedy thoughts’. ---
**Author:** ![Odinoneeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@Odinoneeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odinoneeye)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/45 "2004-01-10T09:13:35Z")
If there are any female virgins who are afraid of being hoarded, please see me. I have a sure fire remedy for this situation. (18 or older please) ---
**Author:** ![xash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c6cbf5/32.png) [@xash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xash)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/46 "2004-01-10T12:12:35Z")
Moved to CS. - **xash** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/47 "2004-01-10T15:11:30Z")
In Peter Dickson’s work (the movie or the book) “The Flight of Dragons” dragons are held to hoard gold because it’s a soft metal, they use it for a bed that won’t burn. I wonder if gold wasn’t used symbolicaly, to symbolize goodness in some works, and the dragons hoarded it to hold dominance over goodness. The same way they’d take pure maidens prisoner. Then again, it could be just in keeping with the “evil personified” idea, the base, unchecked primitive urges in a palpable form. The visible breaking of the tenant against greed. Decadance on a large scale. This doesn’t necessarily apply to Oriental dragons. They were veiwed as good luck. Five clawed dragons were “Imperial” dragons of Japan, associated with the Emporer. (Not to mention other dragons, like the Norse dragons or “wurms”.) I’ve read, that this was because the five clawed dragon was a scholar, and could hold a book/write? I think maybe that was a bit of whimsy on that particular author’s part. Does anyone know if this was an actual part of the “Imperial/five clawed dragon” mystique? Dragons come in many shapes and sizes. Some stories have dragons small enough to ride on a human’s shoulder, such as Ursala K. LeGuin’s “Earthsea” series. In that series, some dragons can take human form, and one dragon has no idea that she is a dragon for most of her life, she lives as a human. (Dragonfly, there is a short story about her, and also a book “The Other Wind” I believe is it’s title.) Some dragons, like the Aisian dragons have more than 4 legs often, which are all the same size. They are long and serpantine. Others are built more like winged Tyranosaurus Rex, with puny looking front limbs. I’d think though, that they have “servants” of some kind. Since they are often capable of speech in books, the can order their minions to bundle the treasure up, take wing, swoop down and pick the bundle up in their hind talons. (Remember, they are like raptors, and can grasp prey with their talongs.) That, in some cases is how I’d think that dragons solve the logistics of getting their treasure to their lair. Or, they have it brought as tribute by humans. Or, it’s what the poor pack animals were loaded up with when they swooped down on their next meal, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/48 "2004-01-10T15:12:35Z")
BTW, Tolkein’s dragon is named Smaug, not Smog. ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/49 "2004-01-10T19:11:01Z")
Don’t forget that Smaug embedded jewels in his relatively soft underbelly for protection, leaving just a vanity bare spot over his heart. It probably has to do more with the greed of men rather than the greed of dragons. Men crave wealth, so they gotta go where the gold is and risk becoming a TV dinner. And through honor or lust they also craved virgins, though these screamed a lot and were much more susceptible to breakage. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/50 "2004-01-10T19:59:14Z")
In Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelungs cycle of operas–I thought this was the context for the Fafner mentioned earlier–it is the Nibelung Alberich’s Ring that enables the transformation into a dragon. He uses the Ring, which is made from gold he stole from the Rhine maidnes, to rule the other Nibelungs as slaves, and amasses a tremendous horde. :dubious: In the first opera, Das Rheingold, Fafner, and his brother Fasolt, are giants, and have kidnapped the god Wotan’s sister-in-law, Freia. Alberich’s horde is taken from him by Wotan, and he gives it as ransom for Freia, along with the Ring, to the giants. Fafner, being the greedy bastard that he is, kills his brother Fasolt, and takes the entire horde–and the ring–for himself. :smack: Many years pass, and in the third opera, Siegfried, it turns out that Fafner has more or less permanently transformed himself into a huge, hideous dragon, still sitting atop Alberich’s gold for which he could have no use, except to feed his insatiable greed. :wally Siegfried kills him, and takes the ring. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Beauty\_Personified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Beauty\_Personified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beauty_Personified)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/51 "2004-01-11T03:40:42Z")
Concerning how a dragon transports his spoils back to his lair, I have an image of a dragon scooping up the gold and whatnot into his mouth, then spitting it out when he gets home. Or it could even swallow his plunder then regurgitate it later. Ewww! I don’t think he could do that with a virgin without damaging her, though… ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/52 "2004-01-11T04:08:21Z")
Now that I think about it, Smaug didn’t gather any (or most) of that treasure. Didn’t it belong to Thorin’s daddy and his dwarf buddies and it was already in place when Smaug crashed the party? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/53 "2004-01-11T05:56:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zabali\_Clawbane \* > \*\*BTW, Tolkein’s dragon is named Smaug, not Smog. \*\* He should have been named Yurasis. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/54 "2004-01-11T06:36:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TOTBP \* > \*\*Concerning how a dragon transports his spoils back to his lair, I have an image of a dragon scooping up the gold and whatnot into his mouth, then spitting it out when he gets home. Or it could even swallow his plunder then regurgitate it later. Ewww! I don’t think he could do that with a virgin without damaging her, though… \*\* Ahem. Dragons do not _hoard_ virgins (dragons are not known for feeding their captives, and chronically unfed virgins have a short shelf-life); they _eat_ them. And, in keeping with the tradition establshed by the Ethiopians with Andromeda, it was usually the inhabitants of the dragon-beleagured community who would make the damsels available for easy access by fastening them to a tree. The sacrifice of a virgin damsel was a means of propitiating the dragon, in the hope that he would spare the crops and livestock of the community for another month (or year, or however long it was supposed to take for a dragon to get hungry again. This may be why the Chinese never developed a mythology of the dragon as damsel-eating blackmailer; an hour after he ate the girl, he’d be hungry again, and no village could sustain that kind of supply – but I digress). The only story I ever read where a marauding dragon absconded with a live prisoner to his stronghold was _The Paper Bag Princess_, by Robert Munch. And in that one, it was the _prince_ who was kidnapped. As to Smaug’s gold-and jewels waistcoat, it is my uinderstanding that that was a serendipitous by-product of his centuries-long habit of sleeping on the treasure in the same position for so many years. I _know_ that, far from being a vanity bare spot, the unprotected area on his chest was unknown to Smaug, until Bard’s Black Arrow found it for him. I like to think the flaw was caused by the Arkenstone, but that’s just speculation on my part; it _could_ have been caused by a Teflon-coated helmet or somethiing. ---
**Author:** ![LadyMack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@LadyMack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LadyMack)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/55 "2004-01-11T06:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by racinchikki \* > \*\*Ooh! Look! A SHINY! AND ANOTHER ONE! AND ANOTHER ONE! AND ANOTHER ONE! SHINY WEEEEE!!! > > … > > Human? You DARE disturb my lair ---- TO STEAL MY SHINIES!!! > > ::fiery death:: > > That’s if dragons had the personality of, say, me, though. \*\* _chuckles softly_ Motive enough for me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![merrily](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@merrily](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrily)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/56 "2004-01-11T16:45:54Z")
I’ve heard a theory that ferrets are descended from dragons, because they hoard things, are very bendable like a serpent, and make a sort of hah-hah breathy sound when excited, as if expecting flame to come out. If this is true, it may support the gold-is-soft theory, because ferrets tend to hoard soft things like socks and small toys. It doesn’t explain my one ferret who hoarded tv remotes and calculators. And then there is my theory that angels are descended from…the flying monkeys in the wizard of oz. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/57 "2004-01-11T17:01:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by merrily \* > And then there is my theory that angels are descended from…the flying monkeys in the wizard of oz. C’mon, let’s not get into anti-evolutionist canards! Just as humans are not “descended from monkeys” but rather share a common ancestry with them, so too angels are not “descended from _Pithecus volans oziensis_” but merely have a common ancestry. sheesh! ;j ---
**Author:** ![Flatwit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@Flatwit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flatwit)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/58 "2004-01-11T21:16:55Z")
Well, here is the real truth of why dragons hoard gold. You see dragons, when sleeping in certain positions, breath out bits of fire, kind of like when we snore, this can light bedding on fire very easily, so normal bedding will not do. Gold is the softest metal, and this is the sole reason dragons prefer gold over other substances. It has nothing to do with a marketable value, it’s just comfortable for them to sleep on. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/59 "2004-01-11T21:31:51Z")
I keep hearing the “soft bed to lie on” explanation, and I just don’t buy it. If a dragon wants something soft to sleep on that doesn’t easily burn, a bed of sand or ash would be much softer and at least as heat-resistant. And it doesn’t explain why dragons would hoard other valuables like gemstones, which are decidedly non-soft to sleep on. Dragons hoard treasure because dragons symbolize greed. There’s no practical reason, they just WANT it. Trying to rationalize mechanics misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770/60 "2004-01-11T22:37:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*They didn’t care. The fact that dragons hoarded gold was a given and it was completely unnecessary to give them a reason to do it. > > It’s known as “fiction.” Look it up.\*\* Even characters in fiction, if it’s written decently, have defined motives. Look THAT up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-motives-of-dragons/221770.md?page=4)