# What are the negative and positive effects of guns in society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895 "2014-03-17T02:10:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/21 "2014-03-17T17:14:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So for the sake of guns you’d support the undermining of every other goal a small city might have? Yes. The point isn’t to actually undermine every other goal the city may have - it’s to force them to abandon their restrictive policies. Either way if successful it’s a win. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/22 "2014-03-17T17:38:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Right, but you are a Canadian. To (many…perhaps most) US citizens gun rights ARE ‘up there’ with the rest. They are part of being an American and are thus all part of the whole fabric that makes up this country, on par with the others…as they are on par with gun rights. And Americans have some of my pity as a result. I mean, really, guns are that ingrained that vexatious litigation leading (ideally) to a city being unable to provide health services, policing, fire response or garbage collection is a “win”? Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/23 "2014-03-17T17:38:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I question your priorities in putting guns up there with Free Speech, Equal Protection, Suffrage and Lutherans, but okay. It would never occur to me to “prioritize” what is mandated by the US Constitution. They are all so, or we are no longer the United States of America. The 2nd Amendment is carved in stone, written in … well … something other than clear and indisputable language. If we can’t trust the Supreme Court to get the interpretation correct, then this isn’t the United States of America. Serious, you want Congress to regulate guns? Has their approval rating been over 10% recently or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/24 "2014-03-17T17:48:56Z")
I think your Congress at this point couldn’t regulate a tee-ball game, but I have no wish beyond the “wouldn’t it be nice if…” to see them try to put laws on gun ownership. I see more practical and potentially useful avenues they could try first, once the surgery to remove their collective heads from their collective asses takes place. And the 2nd Amendment isn’t even metaphorically carved in stone, any more than the 18th was. And if you say prioritization would never occur to you, well… sure… I’ll take you at your word. It doesn’t strike me as a particularly thoughtful position, but whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/25 "2014-03-17T17:49:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And Americans have some of my pity as a result. I mean, really, guns are that ingrained that vexatious litigation leading (ideally) to a city being unable to provide health services, policing, fire response or garbage collection is a “win”? Yikes. I pay for my own health care. Police are revenue generators first, crime fighters somewhere thereafter. Fire stations are closing left and right, never mind the massive wages received. I pay for my own garbage collection. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/26 "2014-03-17T17:56:30Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I pay for my own health care. Police are revenue generators first, crime fighters somewhere thereafter. Fire stations are closing left and right, never mind the massive wages received. I pay for my own garbage collection. Do you pay a toll when you leave your driveway? Welcome to the socialist paradise! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/27 "2014-03-17T18:01:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you pay a toll when you leave your driveway? Welcome to the socialist paradise! I also maintain the road to my house since it’s private - so no. But I do pay for the local roads through city and local taxes, as well as gas taxes. There’s nothing wrong with paying for these services so this is a bit of a non-sequitur. To the point that litigating against cities who infringe on the rights of its population would be a detriment to the other services the city provides - like I said I’m fine with that. I’d prefer the local governments simply comply but if they don’t then they should pay. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/28 "2014-03-17T18:04:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And Americans have some of my pity as a result. I mean, really, guns are that ingrained that vexatious litigation leading (ideally) to a city being unable to provide health services, policing, fire response or garbage collection is a “win”? Yikes. Um…you realize this is shifting the goal posts and a bit of a strawman, right? What I was responding to was simply your statement here: > [@](#): > > I question your priorities in putting guns up there with Free Speech, Equal Protection, Suffrage and Lutherans, but okay. Your other argument with Bone is between you and he and has nothing to do with what I was responding too. And while I’m sure your pity is heartfelt, having lived in Canada myself I can say truthfully that you should save it for others more deserving. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/29 "2014-03-17T18:05:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I pay for my own health care. Police are revenue generators first, crime fighters somewhere thereafter. Fire stations are closing left and right, never mind the massive wages received. I pay for my own garbage collection. Well, when _your_ city (or county or whatever) gets litigated into bankruptcy, then I guess nobody will notice, but you were talking about going after other cities where, just maybe, not everyone pays for their own health care, the police are effective, fire stations are wanted and garbage is collected by contractors hired by local government, and all because they don’t view guns the same way you do. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/30 "2014-03-17T18:07:17Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > But I do pay for the local roads through city and local taxes, as well as gas taxes. That’s how socialism works. We pay taxes, and the government provides infrastructure and services. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/31 "2014-03-17T18:08:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Um…you realize this is shifting the goal posts and a bit of a strawman, right? What I was responding to was simply your statement here: And I was being efficient in responding to you AND him in one post. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/32 "2014-03-17T18:09:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s how socialism works. We pay taxes, and the government provides infrastructure and services. That’s how ALL government work, and isn’t unique or even representative of what socialism is. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/33 "2014-03-17T18:10:19Z")
All the copies of the US Constitution I’ve seen have always included the 18th Amendment. Not a single word has ever been deleted from document. The 2nd Amendment will always be the 2nd Amendment. What we’re proposing is a 29th Amendment that would “repeal and replace” the 2nd Amendment. Pipe dreams, our Congress couldn’t get 2/3’s majority in both houses to recognize tee-ball even existed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/34 "2014-03-17T18:10:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And I was being efficient in responding to you AND him in one post. I must have missed the part that related to anything I wrote then. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/35 "2014-03-17T18:14:57Z")
Yes, I gather you did. I’m not sure how, since my first sentence was pretty clear and in English. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/36 "2014-03-17T18:16:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > That’s how ALL government work, and isn’t unique or even representative of what socialism is. It is in the cartoon version of socialism conservatives like to rail against. Unless they partake of some of the infrastructure and services provided by Uncle Sugar; then it is just the proper role of government. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/37 "2014-03-17T18:17:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s how socialism works. We pay taxes, and the government provides infrastructure and services. I thought we were talking about guns. Wait, does socialism lead to guns? Or is it the other way around? Are you saying the government should collect taxes and supply all of us with guns? Please tell me more about socialism. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/38 "2014-03-17T18:21:17Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I thought we were talking about guns. That stopped being my impression when the idea of suing cities into bankruptcy (with effects well beyond just that city’s gun laws) was advanced. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/39 "2014-03-17T18:29:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, I gather you did. I’m not sure how, since my first sentence was pretty clear and in English. 😛 Yeah, it was ‘pretty clear and in English’…it simply had nothing to do with my own post. Why you didn’t just say that is a mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895/40 "2014-03-17T18:31:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That stopped being my impression when the idea of suing cities into bankruptcy (with effects well beyond just that city’s gun laws) was advanced. That was a bit of a hijack from **Jonathan Chance** ’s mention of the NRA being too extreme. I’m gonna drop that unless there was more there. > [@XT](#): > > 😛 Yeah, it was ‘pretty clear and in English’…it simply had nothing to do with my own post. Why you didn’t just say that is a mystery to me. This was the part that responded to you (He’s got you there): > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And Americans have some of my pity as a result. > … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-negative-and-positive-effects-of-guns-in-society/683895.md?page=3)